Arc Welders

[Oldsalt]

I do very little stainless on mini bike stuff. The attached picture shows my MIG with its mild steel bottle on the back and a big [dangerously unchained] stainless gas bottle sitting on the floor next to it. It is required that I do enough stainless stuff in the hobby shop that buying the bottle and the roll of wire seemed [at the time] worthwhile. Got tired of cleaning up spatter and weld color when using the arc welder on stainless. The picture of the roll of stainless wire is included to point out that it is only a small 10 lb. roll but was about $130. It would be MUCH cheaper to continue using the arc welder with stainless rod. The parts that I occasionally make [for food processing machinery] are fabricated from rather thin 18 ga. stainless steel. Again, there has never been a problem with being able to do a good job with a small stainless rod, it was clean-up that pushed me over the edge. My point is that it costs hundreds to buy the bottle and contents and roll of wire when exactly the same thing can, and was, done with the arc welder. Same with cast iron. Often on small stuff I use the TIG to weld it. But big stuff is best done with Ni-Rod. I do a lot of cast iron because I collect antique engines [made mostly cast iron]and also have friends that don't want to mess with it as it requires weld preparation and preheating. Can't recall if I've ever done any cast iron on a mini bike.

I truly believe that anyone that gets to the point that they wish to do more to a mini, or any other hobby item, than just bolt on things and wants to weld things together is best served, dollar for dollar, to first buy an arc welder and with the left over capitol purchase other required tools. Especially as an arc welder will do a whale of a lot more, for a fraction of the cost, of a MIG. In my view, a guy that gets to the point of wanting a welder is also the kind of guy that will most likely continue to dabble in metal working. Therefore he will, sooner or later, have to have an arc welder even if his pockets are bulging with cash and he can buy any MIG he wants that very day. That same well moneyed fella would be well served to also buy a little 220 V. arc welder [for short money] while he is at the welding supply shop.

 

[metal man]

ok i see what your going for there .you can take a arc and go on to different metals for less start up . where i look at it as mig will do the job of building mini parts and repairs. doing the most common stuff .then if someone wants to they can get the arc and expand there skill .
i just see it as buy the tooling best suited to the job you need to do .
i built a frame with arc and it sucked doing it . the weird angles and that :no::no: i would not do it again with arc given a chance . so looking at it as some one starting out it would be a real bad experience and could be enough to make them never want to do it again .
now redoing some of it with the mig ,(well i use flux core same difference )it was still hard to get some of it the way i wanted but not near as hard as arc .
doing thin stuff on the arc is a skill not easy to master at all . if you can do it i tip my hat to ya , i cant do it to save my life .
a buddy let try a box of some real small arc rods he got like 1/32 or something . i could not get them to work for nothing . made it throw one rod and that was it. put the rest back in the box and gave them back .

 

[Oldsalt]

Exactly right. If a guy gets an arc welder and without help with selection of rod and heat [and a couple of other hints] the chances of a happy outcome are about the same as a whirlwind going through a scrap yard and assembling a 747 downwind. Aversion therapy would be the likely result without 10 minutes of instruction. Yep, as you said, they'll never want to try doing it again. I think that's rather sad.

The rod you mention was probably 1/16. Years ago when stock cars used stock metal panels I skip welded up the doors and etc, on lots of cars, on the thin body metal using 1/16 rod. MIG was a rare item in anything but industry back then. I simply refuse to listen to folks that say you can't arc weld thin sheet metal and I'm not a good weldor. Gas welding, in my book is more difficult to do and get good results and appearance.

 

[ezrider]

I'm thinking about picking this item up for welding mini/kart frame things. Any thoughts?

 

[Oldsalt]

I'm thinking about picking this item up for welding mini/kart frame things. Any thoughts?

Way too expensive considering the fact that you can buy good used 200-225 Amp welders [220V., 1 Ph] all day long for that. It's a 120 v. model rated at 20 Amps [and 21 Amps at 220V.?] that 'they say' will burn 1/16th an 3/32nds rods. A friend bought one and he was sad. I tried it out and it would, barely, burn 1/16th rod, but on the 'cold' side and would not 'lay down'. No way 3/32. Just not enough heat to properly weld something as thick as a 10 ga. engine plate.

 

[metal man]

i hear they do a decent job on thin stuff . check you tube there is vids on the harbor fright welders .
if you have 220 volts bigger is better .
YouTube - minibulldesign's Channel
he built a bicycle with one like you showed , it seemed to work out ok .110 volt welders dont have the power that the 220 ones have . check what size rods it uses and that you can get them .

 

[ezrider]

I was hoping to avoid the 220v welders because I'd have to get an electrician out to wire a jack in my garage.

 

[metal man]

I was hoping to avoid the 220v welders because I'd have to get an electrician out to wire a jack in my garage.

i see ,ya that would be a issue . i have never messed with the arc 110v welders . just seen the vids on tinny building his bike and the other vid i seen on u tube .

 

[Oldsalt]

I was hoping to avoid the 220v welders because I'd have to get an electrician out to wire a jack in my garage.

If you do it your self [install a plug] it will be cheap. Piece of cake. Easier than hooking up your computer. If you have an electric stove, clothes dryer, or 220. air conditioner with a plug that is not too far away I'd just get an extension cord for the time being. Ya...I know. You are suppose to have a 50 amp outlet for most 220 Volt welders and lots of the clothes driers etc. have 30 amp plugs. Worst that happens is that a breaker snaps. Never happened to me. The alternative is to drop 150 bones on a welder that will marginally weld up a bicycle frame and that you will come to hate. It will be worth zero resale. If you pick up a used 220 V. unit it will always be worth what you paid. [Test a used unit before you buy it. Rarely anything ever goes wrong with them other than the fan motor after 20 years].

 

[waltsuz]

I'm very reluctant to post on this topic but I will. I am a welding instructor on a college level for our community college here in Northern Indiana. I have been welding and fabricating steel for over 40 years. 120 volt machines especially MIG's have a very limited purpose that will provide a small level of success for anything structural. Chosing one over the other, I'd pick a stick machine and get some help to learn basic procedures and develope an eye and skill level for this. The basic stick process learning curve will add to a more sucessful weld with a MIG, which on a 120 volt machine is very easy to create a failure. On something that carry's you or your child or friend think about it. Welding is something on a topic like this that needs to be done correctly. Find a buddy, neighbor, or sign up for a course in this craft area and learn to do it correctly. My opinion on this is from my profession and seeing devastating results from weld failures and several loss's of life because of failure. More than not from MIGS.. I have a rule of thumb, if you can't stick weld leave the MIG's alone. Easy and appearance don't always dictate a safe correct weld, JMHO Walt

 

[metal man]

. I am a welding instructor on a college level for our community college here in Northern Indiana. I have been welding and fabricating steel for over 40 years. 120 volt machines especially MIG's have a very limited purpose that will provide a small level of success for anything structural.. I have a rule of thumb, if you can't stick weld leave the MIG's alone. Easy and appearance don't always dictate a safe correct weld, JMHO Walt

ahh a teacher cool :thumbsup:.
i agree the mig is not a guarantee of a good weld . its all in skill and practice .
arc isnt ether i have had arc welds fail too . torch welds that sheared off clean . skill if you cant weld, nothing will work . yes the 110 volt migs are not a big power house machine . but it seems to me that something you guys dont see . is that your doing advanced welding , like oldsalt he works with tractors and big hit miss engines . ok cool but the welding needs he has for heavy steel and cast iron are useless to me . im welding 1/16 inch tube hes doing 1/4 so his needs wont fit mine and mine wont fit his .
one thing i see over and over is "get the 220 and thats the only way to go bla bla " yes the 220 is better yes the $3000 welder is better and does more . but one thing to think about not every one has a shop , or if they do its not a great setup . look at mine ok i have both 110 and 220 volt so i can run what ever i want . now my buddy his shop has only a 110 volt feed . there is 2 lights and 2 outlets . so some one will say "well just put in 220 and be done with it " ok fine, problem he looked in to doing that . ouch ya got $500 just for the box hook up ? he needs a new box on the meter to hook in the new feed . ok fine theres $500 , well how much is 60 feet of underground 220 cable ? lots then ya have to trench it in . its big money for something hes not going to use all that much .
then there is some who do there welding in the parking lot of the apartment they live in . one member on here i talk with told me it sucked every time he went to weld something it started to snow out . i had to laugh i know how that goes when you dont have some place to work on your toys .
so for some of us there is no choice but to use 110 mini machines .
the rule of thumb you have is a good idea . but i seen in my shop class that there was people who could not weld with one welder and lay perfect weld on some other type . dustin h. .was one of them he could not weld any thing with a torch ox/fuel , could not braze nothing .now arc wow dead on first time , mig hahahah we could not break his worst weld .
i could torch weld better then some of the "pros "around here , i have a hell of a time with arc but mig is easy for me . i do the beat it till it fails test on my welding every so often . its weld some square tube 1/16 wall at 90 deg and put in the vice and beat the thing till its back in 2 pieces . my mig welding holds better then my arc just about every time . my first test on mig i did i gave up trying to break it when it wrapped around the vice .
the big thing i would tell some one is get all the info you can . join welding classes if you can , get on you tube and watch all the vids on welding you can find . read books on welding , if you can find some one to show you how befriend them .buy scrap steel and do lots of practice welding , then break the welds . hit them with the hammer make it fail , that is the best test of your welding skill . if the weld fails do it over till it gets harder and harder to make it fail . plan to use up 4 or more 5 gallon buckets of small pieces of steel learning welding . you will fail alot but it can be done just keep trying .

 

[Oldsalt]

I'm very reluctant to post on this topic but I will. I am a welding instructor on a college level for our community college here in Northern Indiana. I have been welding and fabricating steel for over 40 years. 120 volt machines especially MIG's have a very limited purpose that will provide a small level of success for anything structural. Chosing one over the other, I'd pick a stick machine and get some help to learn basic procedures and develope an eye and skill level for this. The basic stick process learning curve will add to a more sucessful weld with a MIG, which on a 120 volt machine is very easy to create a failure. On something that carry's you or your child or friend think about it. Welding is something on a topic like this that needs to be done correctly. Find a buddy, neighbor, or sign up for a course in this craft area and learn to do it correctly. My opinion on this is from my profession and seeing devastating results from weld failures and several loss's of life because of failure. More than not from MIGS.. I have a rule of thumb, if you can't stick weld leave the MIG's alone. Easy and appearance don't always dictate a safe correct weld, JMHO Walt

I agree with your 'rule of thumb': "If you can't stick weld leave the MIGs alone". I can appreciate your stated "reluctance to post on this topic". Many want a short cut in the learning curve and "instant gratification". I'd sorta appreciate that desire if arc welding was, in fact, really difficult. You were, IMHO, being VERY generous and kind when you said 110 V. welders might "provide a small level of success".

If a person, unaided, tries to learn to arc weld without any instruction regarding rod selection, heat, and position it will too often be nothing more than aversion therapy. It will be such a bad experience that the person will not ever want to try it again.

Have taught numerous people to arc weld in my hobby shop. The guy gets a few minutes with a gas MIG so that he gets the hood thing figured out and gets used to a bright light and smoke. Then the arc welder is used to learn how to weld. Rod is cheap and it is not long before the person gets the hang of it. The next step is to buy a cheap used AC 'crackerbox" [unless of course the guy is a high-roller and wishes to buy a new 220 V. gas MIG and a new 220 V. Arc Welder] and practice at home. Not a substitute for a real class at a local Community College but I've had real good success with both youngsters and oldsters.

Can't weld? Live near Walla Walla? PM me.

 

[C9H13NO3]

If a person, unaided, tries to learn to arc weld without any instruction regarding rod selection, heat, and position it will too often be nothing more than aversion therapy. It will be such a bad experience that the person will not ever want to try it again.

You just summed up my situation.

 

[Modding_out]

You just summed up my situation.

If you ever come to my house to get that axle of your machined, I'll show you how to properly Tig weld(arc)

I'm pretty good at laying down unbreakable welds with a tig it's slow go compared to a mig(and more complicated) for sure....but with the massive amount of penetration I can achieve I'll take tig over mig any day.

It's also more satisfying to me to use a tig over a mig because it's an art form, with a mig I feel like I'm using a hot glue gun that throws sparks.



P.S. I learned how to arc weld first with little to no instruction and I sure I'm better off because of it.

 

[C9H13NO3]

If you ever come to my house to get that axle of your machined, I'll show you how to properly Tig weld(arc)

I'm pretty good at laying down unbreakable welds with a tig it's slow go compared to a mig(and more complicated) for sure....but with the massive amount of penetration I can achieve I'll take tig over mig any day.

It's also more satisfying to me to use a tig over a mig because it's an art form, with a mig I feel like I'm using a hot glue gun that throws sparks.



P.S. I learned how to arc weld first with little to no instruction and I sure I'm better off because of it.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that axle :laugh:

I'll PM you

 

[rodburner]

I weld with oxy/acetylene every day at work,so it is my first choice for fabricating. I also have a small Lincoln 110v mig that I use at home,without bottles. Just .035 fluxcore. It is pretty easy to use for minibike/motorcycle size steel,with patience and practice.This is where gas welding comes in handy with learning puddle control,that carries over to the mig. I use it for sticking the heavier stock together and tacking the light stuff together.

 

[mmisterbungl]

I bought a $90 welder from HF this past weekend to learn on my own. So far, I'm not TOO impressed (which was expected) but I was able to do these jobs in my garage with it. My Trail horse had no brakes on it, so I took a piece of metal rod to my neighbors house with the bike and we made the proper bends with his torch. I then brought it back home and welded up the assembly.
Also, I welded some tabs on the DB for some rear-placed pegs.

 

[waltsuz]

Not bad....It'll get better as you get some stick time with it. I"m assuming this is an AC stick machine. If it is there are welding rods available that are designed for AC. Go with name brand stuff, Lincoln, Miller, ESAB, Hobart and such. I'd check out a welding supply and ask about AC rod's. I have run E7018 AC rods with pretty good results on buzz box type welders. Practice makes perfect, Walt

 

[mmisterbungl]

It's a flux core 110a.

 

[steveweippert69]

i have 2 arc welders one lincon newer and an ancient sear that is beast. i love mig welder's as they are easier to work and learn with but a 220 arc can lay a mean bead