Broncco jackshaft gear calculation

ugmold

Active Member
#1
I have a Broncco Diablo (I think) Minibike that has long lost it's original engine/setup. It has a small cradle with a steel plate for a motor mount (added by the PO). I've been pondering how to make this work as their is limited space for engine/jackshaft etc. Not enough room for a torque converter.

What I have come up with that might work is a Tecumseh 3.5 and ratios 10 tooth clutch, 36 in, 10 tooth out and 30 at the rear wheel. Any ideas if this might work, I've looked at the jackshaft calculators and they don't help me much, they gave me 10.8 as a result. Also the rear sprocket is not easily swapped out as it is rubber mounted like a motorcycle the four bolts hold it in place but are not strong enough to hold another sprocket.

The video may explain it better start at

The footage beforehand is on my Rupp which follows up a previous video on straightening the forks.
 

ugmold

Active Member
#3
Never thought about marking the sprockets, good idea. My problem however is that I can't really do it without buying an axle, sleeve spacer, mounting the engine etc, so figuring out what will work before hand is necessary.

If they were both 10 tooth to 30 tooth wouldn't that be 6:1? I honestly am clueless.

I also have 10 inch wheels to throw into the mix. I have been told that a 6:1 ratio is good middle of the road setup, but won't that be different for wheel size?

Thanks
 
#5
Cool roller!
36/10=3.6 (3.6:1 ratio) 30/10=3 (3.0:1 ratio) 3.6x3=10.8 (10.8:1 overall ratio)
30/10=3 (3.0:1 ratio) 30/10=3 (3.0:1 ratio) 3x3=9 (9.0:1 overall ratio)
The larger diameter wheel/tire doesn't change the actual ratio but it does change the effective ratio (search "effective gear ratio"). All else being equal, the larger diameter tire would need a numerically higher ratio (commonly, and confusingly, referred to as lower gearing) than what a smaller diameter tire would need. The greater the difference between the two numbers, the higher the ratio; the lowest possible ratio being 1:1 (zero difference between the two numbers). Using the numbers above, 10.8:1 is a higher ratio than 9.0:1 (but commonly referred to as lower gearing). With the swingarm suspension, you pretty much need to run a jackshaft to avoid chain slack problems. The jackshaft needs to be as close as possible to the swingarm pivot, ideally they would be one and the same for constant (non-changing) chain slack throughout suspension travel. Try to locate the jackshaft to where you can draw a straight line from the jackshaft, through the swingarm pivot, to the rear axle at mid suspension travel for minimum chain slack change during suspension travel. I'm no expert on minibike gearing but I think I would shoot for around 7.5:1 to 8.5:1 overall with the large diameter wheels and only 3.5 HP, just for a starting point (of course, your intended use should be considered: street, trail, or...).
More math examples
29/10=2.9 (2.9:1 ratio) 30/10=3 (3.0:1 ratio) 2.9x3=8.7 (8.7:1 overall ratio)
28/10=2.8 (2.8:1 ratio) 30/10=3 (3.0:1 ratio) 2.8x3=8.4 (8.4:1 overall ratio)
27/10=2.7 (2.7:1 ratio) 30/10=3 (3.0:1 ratio) 2.7x3=8.1 (8.1:1 overall ratio)
26/10=2.6 (2.6:1 ratio) 30/10=3 (3.0:1 ratio) 2.6x3=7.8 (7.8:1 overall ratio)
25/10=2.5 (2.5:1 ratio) 30/10=3 (3.0:1 ratio) 2.5x3= 7.5 (7.5:1 overall ratio)
20/10=2 (2.0:1 ratio) 30/10=3 (3.0:1 ratio) 2x3=6 (6.0:1 overall ratio)
Obviously, all of these are using your 10 tooth clutch and 10 tooth jackshaft to 30 tooth wheel sprocket tooth count. If you decide to use something different (that rear sprocket doesn't look too healthy), just substitute the numbers and use the same simple math.
Having said all of that, I would suggest a more powerful engine. A Predator 212 to keep cost down, or a 125cc Lifan pit bike engine with 4-speed manual transmission, or Lifan 200cc with 5-speed manual transmission. The 125 is long (horizontal cylinder) and the 200 is tall (vertical cylinder) so either one may require frame modification and both would require mount fabrication. The transmission on either should put the sprocket fairly close to the swingarm pivot. The Predator might fit in the frame without modification, a jackshaft or torque converter should be used to get the sprocket close to the swingarm pivot.

Edit: Just checked out your other video, looks like you have plenty of engines on hand. It also made me think of a frame mounted jackshaft which would give you more options as to where to locate the engine left/right since the sprockets can be located anywhere on the shaft, not just adjacent to each other like on the engine mounted jackshaft. You could even put one sprocket outboard of the carrier bearing (chain from engine) and one inboard (chain to wheel) if you get a long enough jackshaft (I'd buy a longish one and cut it to length needed after mockup) to fit one of those big engines you have; locate the other bearing on the other side of the frame (as typical) to minimize stress on the drive side bearing.
 

ugmold

Active Member
#6
Thanks Charles. Lot of good info there.
I've had the frame for over a year and occasionally ponder how I can make it work. As you have watched the other video when I was first guessing what would work:

The rear sprocket isn't bad, the PO painted it red which makes a bit deceiving. It is also (as I think you figured out) is something I need to go with as the rear wheel won't accept anything else without drastic modification (rubber mount system like motorcycles).

Seems for #41 clutch, 10 teeth is common. So we have the 2 jackshaft gears to play with. I have the 36 and if you go price one of these they are expensive (for me -retired) $40 or up ($hipping). But this gear is, as you have illustrated probably the one that decides the ratio.

Now the engine mounted jackshaft has the limitations as to where the engine lines up. I made a mock wooden jack shaft that gave me more options but will also be a tight fit, but as you suggested might be a better way to go.

I really appreciate the time and explanations of gear ratios. Still not clear on effective gear ratios but will look for more info. I set my Rupp up for 6:1 and it has 10 inch wheels and the gearing seem to high, no pickup out of the gate. I just upped the "in" gear 5 teeth, but haven't tried it yet.
 

ugmold

Active Member
#7
Here is a Broncco that is basically yard art at this point, it is Andrew's who puts on the annual "Goma's Minibike Massacre" Race. (#10 coming up in June). Notice the stretched frame. He said I could have it and at the time I wasn't thinking about parts etc, and another bike I don't have room for Gomas Broncco.jpg . But he adapted a larger sprocket on the back wheel, don't know how good of a job he did here, but if he still has it and it is solid it may be an option. Note the long chain, yikes.
 

ugmold

Active Member
#8
Decided to commit to a plan to mount the engine and fabricate a jackshaft. I made a engine plate, used part of an old snowblower for the jackshaft. Really just need parts now to make it work.
 

PatrickCraik

Well-Known Member
#9
Probably better off using the 10T sprockets in/out on the jackshaft and adding a much larger rear sprocket. Your're putting a lot of torque to the jackshaft with nowhere for it to go.
 

PatrickCraik

Well-Known Member
#11
Making a 1-1 from the engine to the drive on the jackshaft,changing to a much larger rear sprocket will give lots of torque to the wheel plenty of top end as well,which will be perfect for a minibike. All of the ratio goobbliegook means nothing if it doesnt get up and go. I found this out on a Monkey Wards XE525. It was missing the 2 speed so I changed to a regular jackshaft. I did what I recommended to you,except I left the small rear sprocket. It was a dog until it got rolling pretty good. A large rear sprocket made it work like a minibike,which I'm thinking is what you want
 
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ugmold

Active Member
#12
Might be the right call Patrick. One of my issues is that the rear sprocket cannot be easily swapped out, it has a rubber mounting.
Broncco-sprocket.jpg
 

PatrickCraik

Well-Known Member
#13
HMM, Not sure know what to make of that. I do know you can buy a "blank" sprocket and add your own holes. I've done it a couple of times. Let me know if that would work for you and I'll dig out the reciept where I bought the last one.
 

ugmold

Active Member
#14
It is like motorcycles use, there is nothing to bolt to unless you drilled some holes which would not be supported. It is why I'm going this route. (until it doesn't work, lol)
 

PatrickCraik

Well-Known Member
#17
OK,I'm lost,lol! Well,It seems to me a different wheel is in order, if you're positive you cant change the sprocket. I don't see how your current set up will make you happy but I dont know everything. Maybe best to put it all together as is and try it out, nothing to lose
 

ugmold

Active Member
#18
I know watching a video is a daunting task, but I talk about all this in it. I thought about swapping the rear wheel as well, but we have a very nice drum brake system I would like to keep.

I posted a pic 11 posts above, of a beat-up Broncco (pick says Race Time on it) The owner of this offered it to me and I passed, not thinking about the rear wheel and the large sprocket that is on it. (could be a bogus job, I would think you would have to ditch the drum brake in order to install that sprocket) I will be seeing him again in the next few months and will check it out, the bike has been sitting on that rock for 10 years, lol.

I may end up using that wheel. It is confusing, there was a lot to think about before I started. The bike originally had a 75cc motorcycle engine on it. (wish I had that)
 

PatrickCraik

Well-Known Member
#19
Yeah,I hate videos,LOLl! Never watch any of them anymore. Best left to HollyWeird,I guess. I'd rather read and look @ pics. Screw it,put it together and see what happens. That will certainly tell you one way or another what you have.
 

ugmold

Active Member
#20
I like your input Patrick and I started thinking about your initial thought. I decided today to try my Rupp with almost the same setup as the Broncco. I recently went from a 14 tooth in, to a 22 tooth in. The reason for the jump was because of no low end. The Rupp is 10-22-12-52 also has 10 inch wheels like the Broncco. I was pleasantly surprised, it ripped a nice divot in my lawn and felt powerful.

The jackshaft calculator gives the Rupp a 9.533

Where the Broncco is 10.8:1, so I'm guessing this might be a bit too low end. If I up the out to a 11 tooth I get 9.818 pretty close, 12 tooth, 9.

So I guess I'm thinking it will work out, not ideal, big rear sprocket is the way to go.
 
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