Chrysler/West Bend SA 825- What is it?

Ding Ding

Active Member
#1
I acquired a very unique "experimental" 1970 Arctic SSSCAT mini bike that came with the 2 stroke, 134cc Chrysler engine. This bike was never sold to the public with this engine. The model number of the bike reads "experimental". In 1971 Arctic Cat made the Screamer model which came with the 2 stroke Chrysler engine, model number 82019. The Chrysler engine model number on this experimental SSSCAT is SA 825. Does anybody have any information on this engine or specifics? I was told this is a 10 HP engine but really cannot confirm so I am looking for some input.




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Itype2slo

Well-Known Member
#6
On stock mini's I have only seen 4 models 520, 610, 700 & 820 on some tom thumbs I have seen tiny west bends maybe from a chainsaw. I also saw an ultralight for sale once that had 2 oddball sized west bends that looked a little bigger than the 820. Good luck with your search. Nice bike.
 
#7
The first three digits of the model number are supposed to represent the cubic inch displacement, 820 usually means 8.20 cubic inches. The remaining numbers of the model number are supposed to represent the crank/PTO configuration and rotation. An odd number at the end of the model number means it has a CCW PTO rotation. A two ring 820's factory specs are usually 7-8 HP depending on pre-mix ratio and carburetor used. A single ring 820 produces 10-11 HP, maybe the "S" denotes single ring, the "A" represents the manufacture it was intended for ( Arctic Cat ), the 82 means 8.2 cubic inches and the 5 is for the type and rotation of the crank. If there's no exhaust, maybe you can confirm whether or not it has a single ring.
 
#8
Ding Ding, It's an 820, the SA is the designation of whom the engines were built for. The karting version of the West Bend 820 were rated at 10 HP @8000 rpm. The Industrial engines ( Gorman Rupp, Rokan, Utility etc) were rated 6 HP to 7 HP, depending on head gasket thickness, timing, carburetor size and rpm. The only 820's that came with a single ring piston were the Copperhead and Vintage 820 which were designed by Dave Bonbright for US Motor around 2007, those came with a single ring piston, two tool steel rings in one ring grove, a manifold that used a Boysen reed, a Tilloston HR 191 carb, a Horstman style head, boost ported, squared exhaust, siamesed intake ports, electronic ignition etc, these were not HP rated but probably put out 15 to 18 HP on gas, 20 to 24 on alcohol. The Copperhead and Vintage 820 are no longer offered from US Motor. I have a West Bend (Chrysler) 610 (100cc), 300 were built to compete against the Mac 91 in the stock karting classes back in the late 60's, The model is SA616, serial 4514. They were built by Chrysler for Dave Liberton, he was going to submit them to the International Karting Federation (IKF) to my understanding he never did submit the project. This engine came with a thin ring piston (two rings, .030 thick) an intake manifold that took the McCulloch 91 reed cage, a large Tillotson HR carburetor, boost ported. I put a GEM V12 intake with two HL293 alky carbs, Horstman head, shaved flywheel, Horstman muffler, it runs very good for a vintage kart setup. The SA may stand for Special Application.
 

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Ding Ding

Active Member
#10
Ding Ding, It's an 820, the SA is the designation of whom the engines were built for. The karting version of the West Bend 820 were rated at 10 HP @8000 rpm. The Industrial engines ( Gorman Rupp, Rokan, Utility etc) were rated 6 HP to 7 HP, depending on head gasket thickness, timing, carburetor size and rpm. The only 820's that came with a single ring piston were the Copperhead and Vintage 820 which were designed by Dave Bonbright for US Motor around 2007, those came with a single ring piston, two tool steel rings in one ring grove, a manifold that used a Boysen reed, a Tilloston HR 191 carb, a Horstman style head, boost ported, squared exhaust, siamesed intake ports, electronic ignition etc, these were not HP rated but probably put out 15 to 18 HP on gas, 20 to 24 on alcohol. The Copperhead and Vintage 820 are no longer offered from US Motor. I have a West Bend (Chrysler) 610 (100cc), 300 were built to compete against the Mac 91 in the stock karting classes back in the late 60's, The model is SA616, serial 4514. They were built by Chrysler for Dave Liberton, he was going to submit them to the International Karting Federation (IKF) to my understanding he never did submit the project. This engine came with a thin ring piston (two rings, .030 thick) an intake manifold that took the McCulloch 91 reed cage, a large Tillotson HR carburetor, boost ported. I put a GEM V12 intake with two HL293 alky carbs, Horstman head, shaved flywheel, Horstman muffler, it runs very good for a vintage kart setup. The SA may stand for Special Application.
Thank you for the reply and information!. I agree, and it makes sense that SA would stand for Special Application, especially considering the lineage of this bike and what it was used for. Believe it or not, it was made as a training aid to teach young kids how to ride and experience a controlled wheelie. Which would also explain the large engine.

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What do you think 6 of SA616 means? Or in my case the 5 of SA 825?

What HP do you think mine is? It came with same Tillotsen HL189A carb that came on the 1971 Arctic Cat Screamers.
 

markus

Well-Known Member
#11
cant help with your engine, but I did have a WB on a one-off wierdo bike that had an SA designation (SA392). I had just assumed it was based off a 510 but I found the piston to be much smaller when I took it apart. I never found out anything about it. Parts used on the bike put it about mid 1960's for the build of the bike at the earliest after doing research on certain parts not sure on the engine though.

It was on this crazy thing: https://oldminibikes.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-mystery-bike-rebuild.54646/

here was the tag:


good luck with it!
 
#12
Note that all engine model numbers ending with an odd number have right hand thread ( CCW PTO ) and all engines ending with an even number have left hand thread ( CW PTO ). Below are the specs from the later model US820, note how they list it as 8.2 cubic inches (134cc) that's where the 82 of the "820" comes to be.

bee cranks.jpg

Specifications

Horsepower: 8 hp

Bore: 2.531"
Stroke: 1.62"
Displacement: 8.2 cu. in. (134 cc)
Mounting: In any position
Cooling: Air-cooled
Starter: Automatic rewind
Ignition: PVL Electronic Ignition
Spark Plug: NGK BR9HS (14 mm)
Cylinder: Aluminum diecast crankcase-cylinder with removable cylinder head
Cylinder Bore: Nikasil Plated
Crankshaft Output End: Options available
Bearings, Flywheel, and Power Take-Off End: Ball bearings
Bearings, Connecting Rod (Upper): Needle Bearings
Bearings, Connecting Rod (Lower): Needle Bearings
Connecting Rod: Forged Steel
Crankshaft: Forged Steel
Piston: Aluminum Alloy
Rings: Two, Compression
Carburetor Location: Variable - 3 positions possible
Carburetor Type: Diaphragm, with integral fuel pump; permits engine to operate in all positions
Fuel: Gasoline, regular unleaded
Fuel/Oil Mix: One third pint oil to one gallon gasoline - (24:1)
Lubrication: Self-Lubrication with oil in fuel
Weight: 15 1/2 lbs. - approx.
 
#13
cant help with your engine, but I did have a WB on a one-off wierdo bike that had an SA designation (SA392). I had just assumed it was based off a 510 but I found the piston to be much smaller when I took it apart. I never found out anything about it. Parts used on the bike put it about mid 1960's for the build of the bike at the earliest after doing research on certain parts not sure on the engine though.

It was on this crazy thing: https://oldminibikes.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-mystery-bike-rebuild.54646/

here was the tag:


good luck with it!
 
#15
Note that all engine model numbers ending with an odd number have right hand thread ( CCW PTO ) and all engines ending with an even number have left hand thread ( CW PTO ). Below are the specs from the later model US820, note how they list it as 8.2 cubic inches (134cc) that's where the 82 of the "820" comes to be.

View attachment 252097

Specifications

Horsepower: 8 hp

Bore: 2.531"
Stroke: 1.62"
Displacement: 8.2 cu. in. (134 cc)
Mounting: In any position
Cooling: Air-cooled
Starter: Automatic rewind
Ignition: PVL Electronic Ignition
Spark Plug: NGK BR9HS (14 mm)
Cylinder: Aluminum diecast crankcase-cylinder with removable cylinder head
Cylinder Bore: Nikasil Plated
Crankshaft Output End: Options available
Bearings, Flywheel, and Power Take-Off End: Ball bearings
Bearings, Connecting Rod (Upper): Needle Bearings
Bearings, Connecting Rod (Lower): Needle Bearings
Connecting Rod: Forged Steel
Crankshaft: Forged Steel
Piston: Aluminum Alloy
Rings: Two, Compression
Carburetor Location: Variable - 3 positions possible
Carburetor Type: Diaphragm, with integral fuel pump; permits engine to operate in all positions
Fuel: Gasoline, regular unleaded
Fuel/Oil Mix: One third pint oil to one gallon gasoline - (24:1)
Lubrication: Self-Lubrication with oil in fuel
Weight: 15 1/2 lbs. - approx.
 
#17
Ding Ding, I don't have the specifications on the HL189, the Tillotson book shows it was for Chrysler engines used for tampers, do you know the venturi and throttle bore size? The early kart engines came with a HL134, they have a 3/4 inch venturi, 1 inch throttle bore, the new engines use a HL232, with the same dimensions as the 134. The kart engine was rated at 10 HP with a .032 head gasket. West Bend and Chrysler adjusted the HP of the 820 with head gasket sizes ranging from .032 to .125. Your engine may have a .062 head gasket to lower the compression so it will be easier to start with the recoil, they are a bear to pull start with high compression. You can see the thickness of the head gasket on the exhaust side of the engine.
 
#18
Some early Nethercutt motorcycles had SA821 engines. The production MK2 models had 82007 engines. I recently purchased the prototype Nehtercutt MK0 and it has an 82001 serial number 1017. This bike was built before the SA821 engines were used. My vote is SA stands for Special Application.
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#19
Thank you to everyone that replied. The information and help is very much appreciated!!

I hope to get this bike up and running within the next year, and will report back with any information that is worthy of sharing.
 

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