Coleman BT200X

#41
I think we all can agree that the whole point of the riser plate is to install a TAV on a Coleman mini bike, correct?. If you don't want to cut the hoop off the frame, the engine has to be raised and shifted forward approximately 1-1/2". What wasn't taken into consideration was, is the front sprocket going to be in the same location as the original after installing the TAV, the answer is NO!. For those who think I'm the only one with the alignment issue, here's some pictures of a stock setup and after the TAV is installed. Measuring from the back of the backing plate to the center of the sprocket on each setup, the front sprocket on the TAV is 3/8" of an inch further to the right. I use the back of the backing plate because with the engine in the same location (left/right) the back of the backing plate will also be in the same location (a known constant). The only variable is the front sprocket. There's no way one could shim the sprocket 3/8" more and still have enough room on the driven pulley shaft. The best way to design the riser plate would have been to make a jig keeping the front sprocket in it's original location, then install the TAV so the front sprocket is in the same location then measuring where the engine has to be located from there, not just lift and shift forward. Or do like I did, align the rear sprocket 90° perpendicular to the back of the original engine plate using a laser crosshair. This way the rear axle is in perfect alignment with the drive unit, then install the TAV on the engine and adjust it left/right until the front sprocket is centered with the rear sprocket.

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#42
Was thinking my solution would be a shim between the engine and the TAV backing plate.
My issue is the chain 'just' touches the outside edge of the rear sprocket, when you pull the bike backwards, the edges of the sprocket teeth rub hard on that edge.
I've actually had the chain climb up on the sprocket and jam HARD! And it broke my tensioner. I think this issue is the main cause of all my dropped chains. I don't think it's a rear wheel alignment issue either. A piece of sheet metal with holes cut in, or washers might do the trick?

Oh, but the other issue is that you can only go so far before all your stuff is hanging on the edge, or the nylon lock nut is not nyloning the thread.
 

SAS289

Well-Known Member
#43
I think we all can agree that the whole point of the riser plate is to install a TAV on a Coleman mini bike, correct?. If you don't want to cut the hoop off the frame, the engine has to be raised and shifted forward approximately 1-1/2". What wasn't taken into consideration was, is the front sprocket going to be in the same location as the original after installing the TAV, the answer is NO!. For those who think I'm the only one with the alignment issue, here's some pictures of a stock setup and after the TAV is installed. Measuring from the back of the backing plate to the center of the sprocket on each setup, the front sprocket on the TAV is 3/8" of an inch further to the right. I use the back of the backing plate because with the engine in the same location (left/right) the back of the backing plate will also be in the same location (a known constant). The only variable is the front sprocket. There's no way one could shim the sprocket 3/8" more and still have enough room on the driven pulley shaft. The best way to design the riser plate would have been to make a jig keeping the front sprocket in it's original location, then install the TAV so the front sprocket is in the same location then measuring where the engine has to be located from there, not just lift and shift forward. Or do like I did, align the rear sprocket 90° perpendicular to the back of the original engine plate using a laser crosshair. This way the rear axle is in perfect alignment with the drive unit, then install the TAV on the engine and adjust it left/right until the front sprocket is centered with the rear sprocket.

View attachment 279774
View attachment 279775
What did you do to correct the 3/8" difference?
 
#44
What did you do to correct the 3/8" difference?
I pulled the engine as far left on the riser plate as I could and tweaked everything else so the chain would run between the backing plate and driven pulley, that and shimmed the driven pulley with two 14ga. machine bushings. The front sprocket is still canted but to get it to work, that's what needed to be done. I also adjusted the right axle adjuster more to get it to line up. Yeah it's not straight with the driveline anymore but that's what you get when people don't care about what they sell only to make a buck. The thing is, this is marketed to the people who care and don't want to cut the hoop off the frame. If I care that much, I also care about it being correctly designed to where my sprockets or chain aren't going to wear out prematurely due to incorrect alignment.
 
#45
Was thinking my solution would be a shim between the engine and the TAV backing plate.
My issue is the chain 'just' touches the outside edge of the rear sprocket, when you pull the bike backwards, the edges of the sprocket teeth rub hard on that edge.
I've actually had the chain climb up on the sprocket and jam HARD! And it broke my tensioner. I think this issue is the main cause of all my dropped chains. I don't think it's a rear wheel alignment issue either. A piece of sheet metal with holes cut in, or washers might do the trick?

Oh, but the other issue is that you can only go so far before all your stuff is hanging on the edge, or the nylon lock nut is not nyloning the thread.
Exactly!, you only have so much room on the rear shaft to play with if you want the nylon part of the lock nut to do its job. Whatever shims you ad, this has to be taken into consideration. Then, wherever the back pulley of the driven unit ends up, the drive pulley has to be in line with it. If you shim out the driven enough to clear the chain, there's barely enough room on the crankshaft for the drive pulleys slide shaft. The way mine is right now, I had to eliminate the washer behind the Nylock nut for the nylon part to do its job.
 
#46
Exactly!, you only have so much room on the rear shaft to play with if you want the nylon part of the lock nut to do its job. Whatever shims you ad, this has to be taken into consideration. Then, wherever the back pulley of the driven unit ends up, the drive pulley has to be in line with it. If you shim out the driven enough to clear the chain, there's barely enough room on the crankshaft for the drive pulleys slide shaft. The way mine is right now, I had to eliminate the washer behind the Nylock nut for the nylon part to do its job.
Went out looking for a low profile nylon lock nut yesterday, ...nope. Seems everytime you need that one bolt or nut, they have every other size, just not that one.
 

SAS289

Well-Known Member
#47
I pulled the engine as far left on the riser plate as I could and tweaked everything else so the chain would run between the backing plate and driven pulley, that and shimmed the driven pulley with two 14ga. machine bushings. The front sprocket is still canted but to get it to work, that's what needed to be done. I also adjusted the right axle adjuster more to get it to line up. Yeah it's not straight with the driveline anymore but that's what you get when people don't care about what they sell only to make a buck. The thing is, this is marketed to the people who care and don't want to cut the hoop off the frame. If I care that much, I also care about it being correctly designed to where my sprockets or chain aren't going to wear out prematurely due to incorrect alignment.
After all you have seen, what design change would you suggest for the riser you have? Should the engine mount holes be offset to the engine plate holes on the riser?

I have two 200U's. One with a TAV, and one with the original jackshaft. I have nearly identical measurements that you showed.
 
#48
After all you have seen, what design change would you suggest for the riser you have? Should the engine mount holes be offset to the engine plate holes on the riser?

I have two 200U's. One with a TAV, and one with the original jackshaft. I have nearly identical measurements that you showed.
The original engine plate has slotted holes for forward/aft engine adjustment. The riser plate has 2 round holes in the front and 2 slotted holes in the back that also run forward/aft. Rather than making the riser plate with holes that run in the same direction, they should have made it with slots for left/right adjustment but I guess that would require to much brain power. I'm not an engineer by trade but after all the headaches and re-designs of what others pass off as good, I should be. You should see the rear brake setup on my Lil Rascal... what a joke!, I still haven't started that build due to the poor design of the rear brake. Not only did they include a 1/4" spacer for the brake disc, I had to put another set of 1/4" spacers on the caliper just to get it to line up with the disc. Then I find that there's only about 1/4 of the brake pad that actually touches the disc. I don't want to put a 20hp engine on something that isn't going to stop so I'm going to grind their crappy setup from the frame and do something more like Mega Moto did and make a caliper bracket that is welded to the rear wheel spacer.
 
#49
The original engine plate has slotted holes for forward/aft engine adjustment. The riser plate has 2 round holes in the front and 2 slotted holes in the back that also run forward/aft. Rather than making the riser plate with holes that run in the same direction, they should have made it with slots for left/right adjustment but I guess that would require to much brain power. I'm not an engineer by trade but after all the headaches and re-designs of what others pass off as good, I should be. You should see the rear brake setup on my Lil Rascal... what a joke!, I still haven't started that build due to the poor design of the rear brake. Not only did they include a 1/4" spacer for the brake disc, I had to put another set of 1/4" spacers on the caliper just to get it to line up with the disc. Then I find that there's only about 1/4 of the brake pad that actually touches the disc. I don't want to put a 20hp engine on something that isn't going to stop so I'm going to grind their crappy setup from the frame and do something more like Mega Moto did and make a caliper bracket that is welded to the rear wheel spacer.
Another thing(s) I thought of, one I tried.
The one I tried was adding 1 washer to the chain side and taking the equivalent off on the other side by using washers instead of the stock cylindrical spacer, essentially moving the whole tire assembly 1 washer distance to the right, the problem then is the brakes, you would have to cut off the tab the brake arm is attached to, do the mod, then re-weld the tab to the frame.

The other thing would be to take a file or some sort of dremel tool or equivalent, and grind your motor mount plate holes a bit leftward, or cut the plate and re-weld it a bit to the left.
(note, L & R is assumed from back view, and this is written according to my specific issue, which is sprocket teeth rubbing (away from bike side of the chain)
 
#50
Another thing(s) I thought of, one I tried.
The one I tried was adding 1 washer to the chain side and taking the equivalent off on the other side by using washers instead of the stock cylindrical spacer, essentially moving the whole tire assembly 1 washer distance to the right, the problem then is the brakes, you would have to cut off the tab the brake arm is attached to, do the mod, then re-weld the tab to the frame.

The other thing would be to take a file or some sort of dremel tool or equivalent, and grind your motor mount plate holes a bit leftward, or cut the plate and re-weld it a bit to the left.
(note, L & R is assumed from back view, and this is written according to my specific issue, which is sprocket teeth rubbing (away from bike side of the chain)
I have another riser plate that I thought about grinding the welds off and re-welding the top portion 3/8" to the left. I just picked up a CT200U yesterday and have been playing with that. I may address this issue in a simpler way in another post if I decide to install a TAV on the CT.
 
#51
I have another riser plate that I thought about grinding the welds off and re-welding the top portion 3/8" to the left. I just picked up a CT200U yesterday and have been playing with that. I may address this issue in a simpler way in another post if I decide to install a TAV on the CT.
There are ways to make mini-bike behave.
 

toomanytoys

Well-Known Member
#53
Ct200u is easy and you can still leave the rear brace in place. Plenty of room. I had the stock chain cover in place but a well placed stick smashed it.

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SAS289

Well-Known Member
#54
Ct200u is easy and you can still leave the rear brace in place. Plenty of room. I had the stock chain cover in place but a well placed stick smashed it.

View attachment 279898
I didn't have the chance of checking it myself because I cut the chain guard bracket off and painted the frame long before I got the torque converter. I went by what others were doing at the time. Probably early 2017.
 
#55
After seeing some pictures of a BT flat track racer, I'm leaning towards building mine as one. I have a Tilly 225 and Juggernaut already in the works, just got the 20x7x8 street tread tires and exhaust in the mail today. The knobby tires will be going on the EX and I have another set on the way for the CT. I'm surprised that tires tires are actually speed rated to 75mph.

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#56
Just found this review on the "Warehouse" site. The review was left just days before I started this post. I wonder if the HiSun PTO vs. mounting holes are different than other clones?, Hmmmm.

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#58
I got the Wanda's for the CT today, silly me forgot to order the bearings though. I went to O' Reilly's to see what they had, $13.49 per bearing and they would have to order them, yeah, I don't think so!, $12.40 for 10 on eBay with free shipping sounds more like a winner to me. I always try to line up the valve stem with the pressure rating of the tire so when I check the pressure, I don't have to hunt for where it is on the tire.

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mustangfrank

Well-Known Member
#59
I got the Wanda's for the CT today, silly me forgot to order the bearings though. I went to O' Reilly's to see what they had, $13.49 per bearing and they would have to order them, yeah, I don't think so!, $12.40 for 10 on eBay with free shipping sounds more like a winner to me. I always try to line up the valve stem with the pressure rating of the tire so when I check the pressure, I don't have to hunt for where it is on the tire.

View attachment 279959
Are those non-flanged 5/8" bearings?
 
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