DB30 fork zero offset issue

Sprocket86

Active Member
#1
Hi there. I've been thinking of getting a used Baja DB30 or monster moto mini bike but I always disliked the way these bikes handled in the turns and at high speed. I think it's to do with the fact that the front fork has no offset between the fork tubes and the centre of the steering axis affecting the steering geometry. Has anyone made up a new set of fork plates or fitted a different fork?
 

Sprocket86

Active Member
#3
A lot of people have used the mbx11 front end or made other front suspension upgrades to the old style DB
I see that the mbx11 front fork still has the same offset as the stock rigid front fork. Looks like custom fork plates are the only way to go.

I noticed the Azuza kits also have the same offset fork as well.
 

Sprocket86

Active Member
#5
would it help if you welded new axle tabs forward of stock ones making wheel further out? just curious..
Hi there.

Yes that's a good idea and I think it would correct the zero offset in the fork geometry. Probably easier to fab up then a set of fork plates.
 
#6
Hi there. I've been thinking of getting a used Baja DB30 or monster moto mini bike but I always disliked the way these bikes handled in the turns and at high speed. I think it's to do with the fact that the front fork has no offset between the fork tubes and the centre of the steering axis affecting the steering geometry. Has anyone made up a new set of fork plates or fitted a different fork?
What are you referring to Sprocket? Rake & Trail? Its not exactly clear what you mean...
 
#8
What are you referring to Sprocket? Rake & Trail? Its not exactly clear what you mean...
Lack of offset between the neck and tubes causes an increased negative trail during turns.

This could be mitigated by:

Increasing neck rake, moving front wheel forward via springer/Earls or other suspension modifications, replacing the trees, or by increasing front wheel diameter.

It's always a trade off between suspension, looks of the bike, and getting a trail that keeps it straight at speed. You should not see this at speeds below 40 for the most part however.

And I am no DB fan, but haven't I been reading about using PW 80 suspension on these? Or even pit bike suspension?

Sprocket was is your rake angle and trail in inches right now, and where do you want to be?
 
#9
Lack of offset between the neck and tubes causes an increased negative trail during turns.

This could be mitigated by:

Increasing neck rake, moving front wheel forward via springer/Earls or other suspension modifications, replacing the trees, or by increasing front wheel diameter.

It's always a trade off between suspension, looks of the bike, and getting a trail that keeps it straight at speed. You should not see this at speeds below 40 for the most part however.

And I am no DB fan, but haven't I been reading about using PW 80 suspension on these? Or even pit bike suspension?

Sprocket was is your rake angle and trail in inches right now, and where do you want to be?
So how would/could we correct/improve this Dave? Does it need more offset on the triple trees? Which technically would decrease trail. Or does it need raked triple trees to decrease trail even more? I did go out in the shop and look at the DB. It has ZERO offset in the triple trees...

Haven't even ridden my DB so I have no idea how it handles in stock configuration...
 
#10
As I said, I have zero doodle bug experience, nor do I build mini bikes that are so fast this is an issue. :laugh: As far as what could be done to mitigate the zero trail, I listed the options above. Take your pick depending on how much fabrication vs. what look or stance you want, vs. how much trail you want. :shrug:

It isn't just lack of offset on the trees, it is a combination of that, axle placement with relationship to the plane of the neck, axle height from the ground and anything else that moves the center of effort on the front axle, to an undesirable zero or aft of the plane of the neck.

You can read about this on line, but most of the solutions are tailored to the motorcycle world. I started researching it many years ago, after purchasing a book, all hand drawn illustrations and solutions on how to build your own chopper, or something like that. I may still have the book buried somewhere.

The first thing to do is measure your rake and trail. With my limited tools, I'd be more inclined to knock the neck out another degree. Once you jig up the bike, you can play around with string and a protractor to get some idea of where you want to be, and what rake angle it would take to be there.

Use a piece of tape under the front axle, with zero starting exactly centered on the axle, perpendicular, down to the tape. Then measure forward and mark off the inches. Then run string from down the neck to the tape and mark it. It should come out about 2 inches in front of that zero mark for your run of the mill mini bike from my personal testing of smaller frame bikes.

Here is a link to a few years ago, surprisingly similar to this conversation.

Edit: All measurements are taken on the ground. Not at the trees, or anywhere else. You are looking at two plane relationships, neck angle down to the ground, not the down tubes. Then exactly vertical from center of axle down to the ground. Measure the difference. That is trail.
 
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#11
As I said, I have zero doodle bug experience, nor do I build mini bikes that are so fast this is an issue. :laugh: As far as what could be done to mitigate the zero trail, I listed the options above. Take your pick depending on how much fabrication vs. what look or stance you want, vs. how much trail you want. :shrug:

It isn't just lack of offset on the trees, it is a combination of that, axle placement with relationship to the plane of the neck, axle height from the ground and anything else that moves the center of effort on the front axle, to an undesirable zero or aft of the plane of the neck.

You can read about this on line, but most of the solutions are tailored to the motorcycle world. I started researching it many years ago, after purchasing a book, all hand drawn illustrations and solutions on how to build your own chopper, or something like that. I may still have the book buried somewhere.

The first thing to do is measure your rake and trail. With my limited tools, I'd be more inclined to knock the neck out another degree. Once you jig up the bike, you can play around with string and a protractor to get some idea of where you want to be, and what rake angle it would take to be there.

Use a piece of tape under the front axle, with zero starting exactly centered on the axle, perpendicular, down to the tape. Then measure forward and mark off the inches. Then run string from down the neck to the tape and mark it. It should come out about 2 inches in front of that zero mark for your run of the mill mini bike from my personal testing of smaller frame bikes.

Here is a link to a few years ago, surprisingly similar to this conversation.

Edit: All measurements are taken on the ground. Not at the trees, or anywhere else. You are looking at two plane relationships, neck angle down to the ground, not the down tubes. Then exactly vertical from center of axle down to the ground. Measure the difference. That is trail.
Well with my limited knowledge of the subject O suspect the true problem is to much trail do to zero offset in the trees.

Here is the extent of my knowledge on the subject...

https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/advchoppercalc.html Scroll to the bottom of the page.


I understand the terminology BUT I don't understand how the changes affect operation of a bike. I know it has to have trail to go in a straight line. What I don't know is what is to much and what is to little. Modifying the triple trees on a DB would be so simple you could do it in an hour. But deciding what the correct offset is, is the question that I cant answer. And like you I don't need to go that fast but improving the handling would improve the bike across the board.

Now if you want to talk front suspension geometry on an automobile I can do that. Way to many years road racing and making parts to improve geometry. But 2 wheels have never been my thing until the "Minibike Craze" hit...
 

Sprocket86

Active Member
#12
Basically it's the same theory as positive and negative castor angles in the front suspension of a 4 wheeled vehicle. More positive castor=better high speed stability and steering feedback/return ability, more negative castor= ease of steering effort and lack of high speed stability.

Notice the DB 30's lack of front end lift while sitting on the bike stationary? While rotating from full steering stop to steering stop and the fact that it doesn't center itself when you let go with your weight on the bike.
 
#13
Basically it's the same theory as positive and negative castor angles in the front suspension of a 4 wheeled vehicle. More positive castor=better high speed stability and steering feedback/return ability, more negative castor= ease of steering effort and lack of high speed stability.

Notice the DB 30's lack of front end lift while sitting on the bike stationary? While rotating from full steering stop to steering stop and the fact that it doesn't center itself when you let go with your weight on the bike.
There are quit a few variables that go into positive caster to make a vehicle go straight and to make it return to center. Wheel offset, scrub radius and the like. But it transfers over in basic principal.

I understand that the suspension (ie the forks) has to lead the tire contact patch down the road. What is unclear to me is the amount of triple tree offset and the amount of trail that make the best compromise to handling.

With zero offset in the trees the DB has a lot of trail. Or at least that is the way it looks to me. I will have to go out in the shop and sit on my DB to see what you are saying about no rise when you turn the wheel. It makes sense that it wouldn't rise as the assembly is all in one plain. Basically it would act like turning a bolt. Just go round and round.. If it could...

So what would be the best compromise to "fix" the handling? Increase offset? Decrease trail?

I would like to figure this out so that I understand what makes it better and what makes it worse.

I appreciate the input on this subject!

Thanks,

Doug
 
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#14
Okay the gears are turning... Zero offset in the trees is basically zero caster...???? It pivots about itself. So by adding offset in the trees we are adding "caster"??? And trail would be the degrees of castor....??? Roughly???? Basically????
 

Sprocket86

Active Member
#15
Okay the gears are turning... Zero offset in the trees is basically zero caster...???? It pivots about itself. So by adding offset in the trees we are adding "caster"??? And trail would be the degrees of castor....??? Roughly???? Basically????
Yes exactly and your thinking is spot on. I'm sure there are other geometrical factors that come into play as a 2 wheeled vehicle is a physicists dream lol but the lack of "positive castor" is what needs to be addressed IMO.
 
#16
Yes exactly and your thinking is spot on. I'm sure there are other geometrical factors that come into play as a 2 wheeled vehicle is a physicists dream lol but the lack of "positive castor" is what needs to be addressed IMO.
It just kind of clicked and started making sense to me. I think I have a plan... And its a pretty simple one at that.
 

Sprocket86

Active Member
#17
I decreased my triple clamp offset on my Honda CRF 450x from 24mm to 22mm and that made a huge difference in the way the bike handles.
 
#18
Yes exactly and your thinking is spot on. I'm sure there are other geometrical factors that come into play as a 2 wheeled vehicle is a physicists dream lol but the lack of "positive castor" is what needs to be addressed IMO.
Yes. Think of the shopping kart analogy. The castor in a McPhearson strut front suspension applies. Looking at photos, you guys are right, they have no offset from the neck to the tubes in the trees. You can still get some positive trail, but I'd have to agree that a new front end is in order for serious riding.

I did put a link to this same issue from a few years ago, above. This geometry requirement has been with us since the turn of the century.

Some folks get confused because they tend to view this challenge as a "front end" problem. In reality, it is all about how the entire chassis is reacting with the front wheel. Is it pushing it (wrong) or is it pulling it? (right)
 
#19
It HAS to pull the tire down the road in order for it to want to go in a straight line. That is the correct way that I was taught about front end geometry. It can be pushed in a 4 wheeled situation but is only applicable in certain extreme situations. It will create very responsive turn-in at low speeds but just the opposite at speed. I tends to create lift in a 4 wheeled application with speed.

I have witnessed and experienced this first hand. I have a friend with a 1965 Mustang. His father had a repair shop and He did all of the work on the Mustang his self. I had made some suggestions for certain modifications to the geometry and the final alignment settings. He did these things and put it on their alignment machine. After he drove it he called me and said something was wrong. I just live around the corner so I went and drove it. Damnedest thing you ever saw. It had incredible turn-in riding in the neighborhood but on the road anything above 50 and the front end would start rising by about 70 it had topped out the suspension. We put it back on the machine and he had switched something on the machine that made it read backwards. We figured that out and set it correctly. It had 4 degrees of negative caster. Made for a strange result that was for sure. Pushing the tire.....
 
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