Deal gone bad... long post.

[ryan68bug]

I've resigned myself to accepting what I'm about to describe as a learning experience, but I want to share it with others for the purposes of feedback as well as helping to prevent similar issues for others out there.

I sold an engine to OldMiniBikes member Karl Masslofsky (screenname Not so mini bike) that I described as a 5-horsepower Briggs Raptor minus its carb and gas tank for $160 shipped to his door. It was among many in a large parts and engine lot I recently purchased and I knew nothing about it other than purely superficial visuals. Turns out I was wrong and shortsighted on a number of fronts, but I'll get to that shortly.

As far as I knew, with what little knowledge of Raptor engines I have, and it is VERY little, it was a Raptor; all I went off of was the "Warning: This is a Racing Engine etc" decal on top of the blowerhousing.

I checked to be sure it was dry (no oil, etc.) and it appeared to be... I stuck my finger down one of the oil fillers and didn't notice anything more than a vague trace that I figured was residual from the oil filler so I boxed it up and shipped it to him.

Karl texts me upon its arrival (it's three hours earlier here in Oregon, so I got his texts with pics as I was getting ready for work) and informs me the engine is NOT a Raptor and that the entire thing is an oil soaked mess, and it was surprising that it shipped in light of that; I agreed, but also said I sincerely thought it was dry of any fluids before boxing it up.

The issues continued, however, as it turns out the block had been patched (see photos), something I've honest to God never seen done before and, regardless of how obvious it may seem to others, I did NOT notice when I was checking it out and boxing it up for him.

I felt bad that it wasn't what he wanted and told him I'd offer a full refund and apologized for things going wrong, as I sincerely didn't know all the features of a true Raptor. He gave me some of those details and specs, which will be extremely useful from this point forward; lesson learned, and if I learn from it, all the better.

I sent back his funds that night after work, which cleared through PayPal within a few days.
Not being in any particular hurry to arrange for the engine's return, I assumed it would be something we'd discuss at some point in the near future.

I never heard a word, so I texted today: "So it's been almost two weeks since I refunded your money on that engine... I just wanted to check and see what was happening in terms of getting the engine sent back?"

His reply: "You paying to ship it back."

"I just assume throw it in the junk pile."

"The thing was covered in something mixed with oil. It's been sitting out side since. If boxed up and shipped back I can but I'm not gonna pay for it. Plus it needs to be cleaned and drained of whatever is in it."

(It should be noted that in his initial texts at the time he received the engine he told me the oil that leaked smelled like vinegar; the only thing I'd been told about the engine when I picked it up was it had been an alky racing kart engine, so I have no idea what factor that may or may not play in the strange odor).

Me (paraphrased, as I apparently didn't save the text): I'll pay for half the shipping since I paid it in full the first time.

Him: "No. I'm not paying any shipping. I bought an item. I was lied to about what it was and turn out the engine has a huge patch in the front of the block. If you want it back you're gonna have to pay full shipping. Be lucky I'm not asking for anything for my time to do everything."

(I have to interject here that I didn't LIE about anything. I may have been ignorant about what I sold, and I made that clear in replying to his initial texts when the engine arrived, but that's not the same as purposefully deceiving someone outright).

Me: "Be lucky? It wasn't like I sent you the wrong engine on purpose. I have no control over shipping costs but I figured sharing the return cost would be most reasonable. it's nowhere near fair for me to be out the engine and the money. know what I mean?"

Him: "But how is it fair to ask me to pay for something I'm not keeping. Why should I be out because you were uneducated on what you had? Not to mention it wasn't only the wrong engine but had a huge patch in the front. You say you didn't notice it. Lol. It was the first thing I noticed when pulling it out of the box. I am not paying one cent to ship this f**king boat anchor."

I give up at this point, replying: "Keep it. I can see I'm not dealing with someone of integrity."

Him: Youre the only one that thinks that

Me: Well we will see soon. I tried to compromise. As for the patch I didn't even know people did that. As far as I knew which I'll admit has fallen far short here once an engine block is broken or cracked it gets junked. I've never heard of or seen anyone patching a Briggs block.


So that's it. I'm out the money and the engine, which I will chalk up to a learning experience, but I have to ask: am I really out of line asking to share the shipping costs for the return of the product that Karl (completely justifiably) didn't want? Is that not a fair compromise?

Because in my opinion the block may or may not be crap (depending on the quality of the repair--personally I wouldn't want to run a patched block either) but there's other components there still of potentially functioning value (blowerhousing, recoil starter, internals, cylinder head, ignition coil, flywheel, etc). I have no idea if the engine is stone stock inside or if it's been upgraded.

I would appreciate any and all constructive feedback on this issue.

 

[cheezy1]

Well..couple years ago I sold a caliper to a member....long story short I sent him the wrong one that he didn't need. I refunded all money and paid to have it shipped back to me and the initial shipping. As a seller...that is how it should be. No offense intended...but it is just good business.

 

[OND]

Ryan, I think I would pay the shipping, just to get the engine back and sell what ever you can off of it. I've always hated to have to eat the shipping but as Bill said...It's just good business.

 

[ryan68bug]

I see paying shipping as the seller as a courtesy, if anything. I don't want to be inherently difficult, but what bothers me more than anything in this case is the insinuation that I purposefully deceived ("lied") about this engine, which could not be any farther from the truth. I refunded the money no questions asked (he sent the pics without me asking for them) but somehow I'm the bad guy for trying to meet halfway. I can't think of a time I didn't have to pay shipping myself on a returned item.

He called me a liar and accused me of being dishonest, so I'm done with it. It probably would have been maybe $20 apiece to cover the shipping costs, but I'm writing it off at this point. Lesson learned, I guess.

 

[Not so mini bike]

I didn't see any pics attached so I figured these might help.
How you couldn't have noticed this is beyond me. I asked if there was anything wrong with it before I bought it. It's funny how the pics I was sent were blurry and didn't include the front where patch was. That's how it feel I was lied to. Ignorance isn't an excuse. If you are selling something you should do research on it to know what you are selling. It not only helps with a sale but protects yourself from issues like this. I don't know how far you put your finger in but there was a lot of oil/ whatever the hell it was in there. Apparently that wasn't the first engine you shipped full of oil. Yes you refunded my money. Which I am thankful for. But why would I pay half of shipping to send it back to you. I have never heard of anything like that.

 

[Twid]

Holy crap! That is one hell of a patch how does one miss that?

 

[ryan68bug]

My original post is edited. Forgot to post the pics originally, and that was my bad. I was focused initially on laying out all the facts.

Again I say, as I'm not one to leave my own ignorance out of this whole tale, I didn't notice the repair to the block. I've heard of people welding on blocks for reinforcement etc. but I've never seen anything like this and it didn't stand out to me; obviously out of my own shortsightedness. But I am not dishonest and I am certainly not a liar.

And again I'll say as a consumer I can't think of a single time I've ever not been responsible for return shipping if I'd have a part returned for defect or any other reasons.

I used to play around with Volkswagens and once or twice I had to return parts that were either defective or didn't fit and I had to front the shipping myself; sucked, but I figured, well, that's life. A machine shop once sent me a return tag for an engine case that they messed up the machine work on, but that was a circumstance where something was on them and they owned up to it. I actually was prepared to pay the shipping myself when they offered to take care of it, for which I was totally grateful. In another incident, I returned a crankshaft pulley to a vendor because it didn't fit my crankshaft and needed to be machined properly as it was far too tight as manufactured; the company didn't cover the shipping for the return, and I honestly can't recall if I had to cover shipping when they resent it out. It's been a few years.

Overall, I'm done with this situation. I'm truly sorry it didn't work out well for either one of us, but that's life.

 

[cheezy1]

Wowser....you are lucky he was so nice. If you sent me that motor and not mentioned a gaping hole in it that was patched...I would drive to Oregon and toss it through your front window and then stomp a mud hole in ya if you dared come outside. Just sayin....

 

[ryan68bug]

As for "not the first engine I shipped full of oil," there was ONE other situation in which an engine got held by USPS in Washington allegedly for smelling of gasoline... not sure how, it had no tank and only a carb that appeared bone dry to me (diaphraghm carb, not float bowl type) so I'm not sure how or what happened to trigger a hold, but it did make it to its final destination... and did not leak any oil. USPS didn't report any oil leakage and no one else has reported any oil leakage issues to me of the engines I've shipped so far. At least not to me.

 

[Not so mini bike]

Holy crap! That is one hell of a patch how does one miss that?

No clue. It was the first thing I noticed. It's multi colored so it's not like it blends in with the block. Lol

 

[ryan68bug]

Wowser....you are lucky he was so nice. If you sent me that motor and not mentioned a gaping hole in it that was patched...I would drive to Oregon and toss it through your front window and then stomp a mud hole in ya if you dared come outside. Just sayin....

Nothing was intentional. I've NEVER seen an engine patched before and, dumb as it may sound, it didn't stand out to me and in hindsight I take full responsibility for not noticing this before shipping it. I took responsibility for it IMMEDIATELY upon his initial contact.

There was no follow up by either of us in the last couple of weeks until today as to what to do with the engine itself. That's something else that probably would have helped this situation.

I posted all this for the sake of honest, constructive feedback and I think I've received that now.... up until the remark "I would drive to Oregon and toss it through your front window and stomp a mudhole in ya if you dared come outside?" That's a ridiculous amount of hostility to spout off to someone a couple thousand miles away whom you don't know. Just sayin'.

 

[minikenny]

I would appreciate any and all constructive feedback on this issue.

If a business makes a mistake and sends the wrong item, the full purchase price including shipping is refunded, or the correct item is sent at no additional cost to the buyer.

If it is a valuable item that the business wants back, a call tag should be provided to the buyer (i.e. seller pays return shipping.)

Now it is your right to pay to have the engine sent back if you want it. But even if you do pay return shipping, you are still asking him to do the job of draining the fluids and cleaning the residual that *should* have been done before the engine was ever shipped in the first place.

If that had been done, maybe the gaping hole in the front of the block would have been noticed?

 

[cheezy1]

Honestly....there is no way you could miss that....unless you are Ray Charles. So ya..business is business...I take it serious and would be pissed if that was me. And I do not need to meet you to now know that I would never do business with you after seeing this thread. You may be a cool guy...but to be petty about shipping it back when you dropped the ball this bad...and to make this thread...I really don't care to know. As messed up as that motor is...let him scrap it and move on.

 

[ryan68bug]

If a business makes a mistake and sends the wrong item, the full purchase price including shipping is refunded, or the correct item is sent at no additional cost to the buyer.

If it is a valuable item that the business wants back, a call tag should be provided to the buyer (i.e. seller pays return shipping.)

Now it is your right to pay to have the engine sent back if you want it. But even if you do pay return shipping, you are still asking him to do the job of draining the fluids and cleaning the residual that *should* have been done before the engine was ever shipped in the first place.

If that had been done, maybe the gaping hole in the front of the block would have been noticed?

I'm resigned to this situation being what it is. And I understand how it looks on the outside... especially as glaringly obvious as that patch is. It is truly embarrassing for me, which is why I'm not afraid to admit it. I'd be a fool to say otherwise. The engine was a racing kart powerplant built by a guy named Smitty here in Oregon, supposedly ran alcohol, and I've no idea if that patch was a stop gap type of repair to get through one more race or to finish a season; no idea. Doesn't matter, I should have noticed it.

If I were a dishonest person, I wouldn't have refunded the money and I certainly wouldn't continue to offer my regrets for where I fell short on this deal. I hope that much comes through here.

The feedback is appreciated. I've learned what I needed to learn and I will additionally offer my apologies for the remark I made about a lack of integrity to Karl; I wouldn't dream of posting only one side of the conversation and it's all out there for the world to see. I've been told what I needed to hear and I'll be wiser the next go around.

 

[manchester1]

Wowser....you are lucky he was so nice. If you sent me that motor and not mentioned a gaping hole in it that was patched...I would drive to Oregon and toss it through your front window and then stomp a mud hole in ya if you dared come outside. Just sayin....

That's funny Cheezy. I hate to chime in but that repair job is pretty noticeable. I would of flipped out.:laugh:

 

[ryan68bug]

Outside perspective is valuable in helping to learn a lesson, so that's what I've gotten here and that's why I posted the entire situation without exaggeration...I had no desire to instigate a major flame war, just sought out harsh truth and I definitely got it.

 

[massacre]

Just my 2 cents-

I have bought parts from Ryan and never had a problem. I did receive a wrong part once and Ryan sent out the correct one with no issues, I shipped the wrong part back to him for free just because that's how I roll. We never discussed return shipping and who was to pay so it never came up. I almost feel a little responsible because maybe me paying to send it back, made him think that was the norm?
I definitely believe Ray when he says he didn't see the patch, I just don't think he would lie about that. Now I may question whether or not someone may need glasses, because that is a fairly obvious patch job but I could see it being dark or a shadow or something and him not noticing. I refuse to believe he purposely sent someone a wrong and broken engine.
And starting the thread, I see that as him being open and honest because he doesn't know what else to do.

The ignorance about the engine is on Ryan, but on the shipping I think he might be just a little ignorant of what the normal etiquette is for a seller on the internet in today's world. Now that a bunch of us have told him that he should have paid for the return shipping, I think he learned something and I think he would agree.
I have found Ryan to be extremely honest and up front about everything and have had good experiences with buying parts from him. This incident was unfortunate but hopefully this was a learning experience which means it wasn't a waste.

I guess the moral of this story is that it doesn't even matter who is right and who is wrong, because the customer is always right. If you make a mistake, you have to do everything in your power to make it right for the customer.

 

[ryan68bug]

The most important thing here on my end is that I will absolutely not make this same mistake again. In the end, patch job or no patch job, it wasn't the engine that Karl wanted. As I said in my last post above Massacre's, I posted everything related to the situation not for the sake of public humiliation or mudslinging, but so the whole situation would be presented. I didn't want to leave anything out.

The embarrassment I feel isn't a bad thing, necessarily, as I got what I was asking for.

 

[Not so mini bike]

Just my 2 cents-

I have bought parts from Ryan and never had a problem. I did receive a wrong part once and Ryan sent out the correct one with no issues, I shipped the wrong part back to him for free just because that's how I roll. We never discussed return shipping and who was to pay so it never came up. I almost feel a little responsible because maybe me paying to send it back, made him think that was the norm?
I definitely believe Ray when he says he didn't see the patch, I just don't think he would lie about that. Now I may question whether or not someone may need glasses, because that is a fairly obvious patch job but I could see it being dark or a shadow or something and him not noticing. I refuse to believe he purposely sent someone a wrong and broken engine.
And starting the thread, I see that as him being open and honest because he doesn't know what else to do.

The ignorance about the engine is on Ryan, but on the shipping I think he might be just a little ignorant of what the normal etiquette is for a seller on the internet in today's world. Now that a bunch of us have told him that he should have paid for the return shipping, I think he learned something and I think he would agree.
I have found Ryan to be extremely honest and up front about everything and have had good experiences with buying parts from him. This incident was unfortunate but hopefully this was a learning experience which means it wasn't a waste.

I guess the moral of this story is that it doesn't even matter who is right and who is wrong, because the customer is always right. If you make a mistake, you have to do everything in your power to make it right for the customer.

I'm sure it wasn't a whole engine you shipped back to him for free. I have sent numerous packages out for free. Like free free. Person didn't pay for part or for shipping. Granted it wasn't a $100 part but it was something they needed and we're gonna pay money for. If it was something I could have boxed up and shipped out for next to nothing I would have had no problem sending it back. But the fact is I would have had to invest time and money shipping this back and I wasn't going to do it on my dime.

 

[massacre]

I'm sure it wasn't a whole engine you shipped back to him for free. I have sent numerous packages out for free. Like free free. Person didn't pay for part or for shipping. Granted it wasn't a $100 part but it was something they needed and we're gonna pay money for. If it was something I could have boxed up and shipped out for next to nothing I would have had no problem sending it back. But the fact is I would have had to invest time and money shipping this back and I wasn't going to do it on my dime.

No, it wasn't a whole engine.
Just so we are crystal clear, I never said you did anything wrong at all Not so mini bike, that was not my intent. You were in the right. My point was that this was not maliciously done and most likely will never happen again.