Electrician help

WrenchDad

Active Member
#1
Hi Guys I have an electrical (non minibike) question and I figured with 32,000 + members on this site their should be some Electricians who could help.

The equipment : 1/2 hp Sand Pool filter pump Electric Motor (110 plug in start).

The Back story: I was trying to open the pool for the season four days ago. I got the filter/pump and all the hoses hooked up and ran the filter for about an hour until it needed to backwash (which I did) and ran it for about another 1/2 hour then shut it down. Thursday I ran it for about 2 1/2 hours and my wife (shut it down. (pulled the plug) Yesterday (Friday) I went to start it back up and it just hummed. I thought maybe the impeller was jammed with a small stick or something, so I reached inside the pump and spun the impeller and it was free. I tried to start it again and it started but only ran about half speed for 10 sec. or so then tripped out (the motor not the outlet). I let it sit for 5min. and tried again, the same thing happened. Because I did not see the water flow (which was very low) when it was shut down I thought maybe the sand filter was plugged, causing restricted outflow and putting a strain on the pump/motor. Today (Saturday) I cleaned the filter sand and reassembled, I started the pump and same thing happened. Ran 1/2 speed and the tripped out.

The Problem: It had that unmistakable burnt electric smell. so I took of the electrical connection cover (the gasket for that was split in three places) to find the start capacitor was fried. (see Photo's) (If you don't know how pool pump motors work, some use capacitors to add extra juice to bring the RPMs up to full speed.)

The Question : Other than knowing it is Square D nothing else visible means anything to me. Can some one tell me what I need to get to replace this. I found pool pump motor start capacitors on line but I have no idea what I need or where to get one.
The info on the capacitor in the pictures is all I have, under that lead glob it say's EN 60252. Any stickers on the motor are unreadable. There might be other info (model h.p. rpms) under the fan shroud but I haven't taken that off yet.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks W/D

 
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#2
Ya that stinks.

I can not tell you what you had but I bet if you call around with the modle and serial number to a couple of electric motor repair shops in your area someone can help you..

maybe google the data on the name plate to find the proper cap to replace it.

I used to have some tables to tell me roughly what can I needed for a motor when I was not sure what it came with but its been so many years and I lost all that info ( not many people ask me questions like this anymore ).

My first attempt would be to try a small local shop that fixes motors ( every town USED to have one) and there are still lots out there.
Failing this.....
How many HP is the motor? 1/2 hp????
guessing but I think a about 159-200 micro farad would be a good place to start for a cap start motor, and that's what I think you have...
The tolerance on these tends to be all over the place so being close enough that it starts and starts reliably is all you really need
 
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WrenchDad

Active Member
#3
I've Googled the EN 60252, the CE133, and the -25/70 and all I get is a list of various capacitors . Like I said I don't know what any of that means I don't know what I'm looking at. I'll have to see if there is a model number inside the shroud.
Thanks for the info.
 
#4
Unlikely you find anything inside.

Phone book is there a motor repair shop near you?
Is there a place that sells parts????

Often these guys ( if you find a gray beard that is... )
can make some educated guesses even if they do not have all the name plate data about what will work.

The EN and CE are specifications that the part met or exceeded, the real meat of the matter is too melted to read.
What you want is data like this

This is complete and tells me its a 53-64 at 250 volt.
http://www.vetco.net/catalog/images/NTE-MSC250V53.jpg

I suspect you need one slightly larger, but I am guessing.
 
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WrenchDad

Active Member
#5
Unlikely you find anything inside.

Phone book is there a motor repair shop near you?
Is there a place that sells parts????
.
There are places that sell the pump/motors and can get parts, if you know what make and model unit you have . I unfortunately have neither.
I can probably take the capacitor in to them and they might recognize it. (the one I have is about 1 1/2 the size of a D battery) what do the numbers on the bottom mean
300v - 120/50
350v - 120/10
-25/70 50/60
 
#6
There are places that sell the pump/motors and can get parts, if you know what make and model unit you have . I unfortunately have neither.
I can probably take the capacitor in to them and they might recognize it. (the one I have is about 1 1/2 the size of a D battery) what do the numbers on the bottom mean
300v - 120/50
350v - 120/10
-25/70 50/60
I would show them and see what they can match.
 
#7
That's plastic and was not located under a metal hump cover on top of motor correct ? If so it's a start capacitor , are you sure the motor is only 1/2 hp ? Seems very small ?
 
#8
I need name plate amperage to convert to kw , 120 volt start capacitors are sized off kw , amps times 120 volts equal watts , divide by 1000 for kw , Google capacitor sizing and that's it , most capacitors are ok plus or minus 5 percent !
 
#9
I need name plate amperage to convert to kw , 120 volt start capacitors are sized off kw , amps times 120 volts equal watts , divide by 1000 for kw , Google capacitor sizing and that's it , most capacitors are ok plus or minus 5 percent !
Sounds reasonable....
I remember something a long those lines as a rule of thumb.

But I would still take it to a shop and ask what they think ( picture of the motor too ).

I remember Century electric sold a line of pool pump motors they called a " Switchless Centurion "
These had a fairly high value of capacitor for their size and it was in a PVC case like the one shown.

I don't like to guess so we need to look things up.

I did a little research too.
Seems this style of pump is J shaft and yours is probably a 56J. ( J just indicates the pump style of shaft, one of several )
If I had my code book handy it would give a list of current ratings for that...
I will see if I can find more info.

"All I know is my gut tells me maybe.... "
I don't know why but my feeling is we need some pictures of the motor to identify it and maybe get you a model and part number.
 
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WrenchDad

Active Member
#10
Sounds reasonable....
I remember something a long those lines as a rule of thumb.

But I would still take it to a shop and ask what they think ( picture of the motor too ).

"All I know is my gut tells me maybe.... "
I don't know why but my feeling is we need some pictures of the motor to identify it and maybe get you a model and part number.

Thanks for the info guys, I was busy all day today( Sunday and didn't even see your post). I will get some pictures today of the Motor and pump and see if I can get any other info.
Chipper : that is correct it is plastic and NOT under a metal hump it was under a square plastic cover where the power cord came in . I'm sure it is a start capacitor, I just cant tell you any more at this point If it's not 1/2 hp I'm not sure what size it is. I'll get you more info as soon as I can.
Thanks again guys.
 

WrenchDad

Active Member
#11
I talked to our electrical contractor here at work today and he pointed me in the direction of an electrical supply and repair contractor local to me. (It's who they deal with when they need stuff ) He said that is their specialty and he is sure they would reconize it and after being told what it was from, should be able to suggest a replacement.

Will give that a try and see what happens.
 

WrenchDad

Active Member
#12
So today I stopped at the local electric motor repair shop, A little 70 yr old lady in a work uniform comes over to the desk and ask if she can help me. I show her the capacitor and tell her it's from a pool pump and she jumps into action. she checks all the volts and hertzs and such from what she can read and leaves. She comes back with a capacitor and say's this should work. The problem is it's not the same (Exact size and build) as what I have and wont attach the way it is supposed to. She said that's all I can do for ya, if you find any more info come back and we'll have our pump guy find one that will fit. She also said anymore than what she could read from the capacitor would be just guessing. I believe her because she know's her stuff.

So here a couple of pictures of the motor and pump if anyone can identify it, that would be great. As far as know it is not a Hayward and the motor is smaller than my 1hp Hayward motor from my old pump.
 

WrenchDad

Active Member
#14
that capacitor can float in that housing as long as the leads won't short out , if you can jam it in there it'll work !
there is a bar (with contacts in it) that the capacitor goes into on the top prongs and leads for the bottom. The capacitor she had was one of the black ones with the cap/ring around it and wont allow it to slide into the bar( that is the mount to keep it stable. If I cant find what I need I can have the electrician just put leads on everything.
 

MB165

Active Member
#15
looks like the data plate is faded, is there only one capacitor in there? what microfarad did they sell you? don't worry about physical size, it could be just fine.
 

WrenchDad

Active Member
#16
looks like the data plate is faded, is there only one capacitor in there? what microfarad did they sell you? don't worry about physical size, it could be just fine.
I don't know the Microfarad, She knew what I needed to match the Volts and such, But I didn't buy it because it wouldn't slide into the bar.
Picture attached the top prong on left goes in the bar on the contact and the right prong goes in the blank and the red/yellow leads go on the bottom prongs. That's why I need the open capacitor.
 

WrenchDad

Active Member
#17
Update
OK got a capacitor Wednesday night from the local electric motor repair company (they specialize in pumps and such, I never new that I thought they did structural electrics). Anyway our Electrician at work took all that plastic bracing out and put in insulated connector boots and got the capacitor jammed in there. I RTV'ed the casket last night and will install it today.

Thank you to all who offered info and help, I appreciate it very much.
 
#18
Update
OK got a capacitor Wednesday night from the local electric motor repair company (they specialize in pumps and such, I never new that I thought they did structural electrics). Anyway our Electrician at work took all that plastic bracing out and put in insulated connector boots and got the capacitor jammed in there. I RTV'ed the casket last night and will install it today.

Thank you to all who offered info and help, I appreciate it very much.
I'm glad its worked out for you.
Nothing i hate more than having to scrap something that could be fixed.

RTV Silicon:
In your application it does no harm.
But anything with a set of brushes can very easily be contaminated.
In fact Its almost a sure thing that if you use RTV on any kind of brushed motor you will shorten the life of the brushes ( so just file that tip away )
 

WrenchDad

Active Member
#19
I'm glad its worked out for you.
Nothing i hate more than having to scrap something that could be fixed.

RTV Silicon:
In your application it does no harm.
But anything with a set of brushes can very easily be contaminated.


I did not know that I will remember that.
Thank you for the help I definitely did not want to spend a $150 -$300 for a new pump just because of a $15.63 run capacitor. That's why I posted here. You Guys definitely lead me in the right direction.
 
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