Flea F71 Competition by Bug

cfh

Well-Known Member
#41
I don't mean to start a fuss, but the only person that "owns" the Flea logo and graphics for such is FLEA. No one else! Just because someone scanned in an original decal and spent time re-creating it in Photoshop DOES NOT mean you own it! It's flea's logo and their trademark. Not the Yahoo selling re-creations on ebay.

Now if it's a new completely custom Flea logo, ok fine. But if it's just a re-creation of the original, nope. And technically since Flea owns the trademark, even a new re-creation using the Flea name isn't owned free and clear.

The same applies to flyers and catalogs and brochures. The original company owns those graphics, not the Yahoo that scanned them, etc...
 

Davis

Active Member
#42
I don't mean to start a fuss, but the only person that "owns" the Flea logo and graphics for such is FLEA. No one else! Just because someone scanned in an original decal and spent time re-creating it in Photoshop DOES NOT mean you own it! It's flea's logo and their trademark. Not the Yahoo selling re-creations on ebay.

Now if it's a new completely custom Flea logo, ok fine. But if it's just a re-creation of the original, nope. And technically since Flea owns the trademark, even a new re-creation using the Flea name isn't owned free and clear.

The same applies to flyers and catalogs and brochures. The original company owns those graphics, not the Yahoo that scanned them, etc...
You sir are an idiot!
 
#43
I don't mean to start a fuss, but .
No, "Flea" does not own it. The bike was MFGR'd by a company originally called Bug Engineering, and later on changed to "K&P Engineering" when this particular bike was manufactured. The "Flea" logo transcended both companies on several bikes and karts. The company was the first mass producer of mini bikes, beating Go Kart out by a week, and went on to compete in competition karting throughout the sixties, and seventies, and possibly the early 80's.

They stopped producing bikes soon after the model featured in my build thread was produced.

Many of us have met the some of family members of that company. By implicit consent, I would venture to say we are allowed to reproduce and use these 59 year old icons both with their bikes and karts. I say this because this exact decal has been affixed to vintage karts both seen and ridden by none other than Faye Pierson, the original co-owner of the company. If Faye, or her sons have a problem with these decals being re-popped, they certainly haven't said anything at the events.

The "Yahoo" selling these on Ebay is a very talented individual, well known to many of us here, who have bought his products, as well as several in the vintage karting and hot rod world. He also known for his pin striping and artistry in hot rod circles.

In this case, he did not "scan" an existing decal, or art work. He had to build it, because the only example of that decal was an old, and faded sales brochure where the logo was barely visible at a distance. The color was also an educated guess based on other literature the company had produced, not based on any decals. So there was artistry, not just scanning and removing watermarks.

The intellectual property, or work that the so-called "yahoo" has done is his artistic work. Period. Should the Pierson's have a problem with it, I will certainly pay them for using their logo on a product they built nearly 50 years ago. But thus far, they have allowed the reproduction, since so many of their machines have been restored, or have remained in service.
 

cfh

Well-Known Member
#44
That's good history, but the guy on ebay still does *not* own the graphics.

Let me put it another way... go ahead and scan in the "disney" logo. print some stickers and put on ebay. it will take a whole 5 minutes and the auction will be shut down, and you will probably get a cease and desist from disney. even if you make your own disney logo, it does not matter, same thing will happen. it's their name and their property. you can't just take it and do with it as you please. you can claim 'fair use' and use it on a one off restoration. but you sure can't sell it or even give it away.

now will this happen with the flea logo? no. but that doesn't change the ownership issue.
 
#47
Great thread, nice bike. I like that jackshaft disc brake, I’m making some.
Thanks Steve, the Flea's used those brakes on several bikes. I just cant get the original spec caliper, which had the bolts spaced closer together. On one of the test runs today, I took it about a quarter mile away. That microscopic return spring on the carb got dislodged, so I had to ride it home through the neighborhood stuck on full throttle. That brake really got a work out!

I used a 5/8 finished hub, then bought a few 4" steel discs, drilled them to OD of the hub, set the hub with a nice weld, and since I can't find center with ANYTHING, chucked it on my drill on a jack shaft, and trued. The run out was perfect.

Here are two of them.
 

Attachments

SAT

Active Member
#48
Ah, closer to the lil Indian caliper, 1/4” or so closer than any available now, reasonable priced. I’ll go with OMB- Azusa-Thomas.
Thanks for the info.
Maybe two return springs in your future. I run two lighter springs side by side on the parade bikes and a throttle side kill switch just in case.
Outstanding work. Thanks again for the help
 
#49
Ah, closer to the lil Indian caliper, 1/4” or so closer than any available now, reasonable priced. I’ll go with OMB- Azusa-Thomas. Thanks for the info.
Maybe two return springs in your future. I run two lighter springs side by side on the parade bikes and a throttle side kill switch just in case. Outstanding work. Thanks again for the help
Steve, 1/4" plate worked fine for the el-cheapo modern calipers. I was able to use a clevis on the bottom, and it's all fastened up underneath the bike with silver solder. Really holds well. Note, you do not need a hub with a set screw for these, as the caliper holds them. I used set screws, but it's over kill. I use those bronze cable ends OMB sells, and solder them on to the cable.

As far as that tiny carb spring, it's fine, it just slipped off somewhere along the line of me fiddling with the linkage on the engine. Another soldering job, with a nice termination, and not any cable hanging down, or shitty wire screw terminations. But the only throttle adjustment I have is that little bit at the hand throttle itself.

No electric kill switch yet, and I have learned not to attempt to push over the plug shorting strip on a moving mini bike. :)
 

SAT

Active Member
#50
All the parade bikes we work on get two wire screw stops side by side on a plain cable end. Not pretty, we hope folks will just look at the clown and laugh.
Thanks for the detailed information. Again, nice work on that bike.
 

delray

Well-Known Member
#51
i'm kind of curious if you ever found any good pictures how the factory brake cable was mounted on the bike. I see you just fab it under the bike. I am assuming that was about the same way they did it too.
how does it stop? good,poor,ok? I also wonder it they made it more of a floating brake it would stop on a dime?

here is a picture of my brake still on the bike. might be interesting to see?
 
#52
i'm kind of curious if you ever found any good pictures how the factory brake cable was mounted on the bike. I see you just fab it under the bike. I am assuming that was about the same way they did it too.
how does it stop? good,poor,ok? I also wonder it they made it more of a floating brake it would stop on a dime?

here is a picture of my brake still on the bike. might be interesting to see?
Brian, that is an excellent photo of the brake. I have not seen any better. From the brochures, I could tell that K&P went over the top of the engine plate to actuate the brake, and your photo proves that. In your case, I'd look for something that indicated where the cable anchor was.

I decided to go under the frame to minimize clutter next to the engine. Once I tear it back down, I will be sure and take a photo of the linkage I came up with using the Chinese calipers. As far as stopping, it totally kicks ass. I get zero brake drag riding, and there is no need to lock down the rotor within the caliper. If I pull the handle hard enough, I can lock up the rear tire. Of course stopping depends on the rear chain being whole. I have a bike with a band brake on the JS, and the stopping power is comparable, though I would guess the band brake is better for stopping due to more surface area.
 

delray

Well-Known Member
#53
well it was about 7 degrees this morning and wet out to the Big shed(42'x60') and pulled the flea frame inside my small shop(heated) where I keep my lathe and mill. I was thinking dave just maybe with little bit of luck that STP sticker might of preserved little bit of color and anything else that might help on the correct decal and it did.
ok here is what I found when peeling back the stp sticker. just little bit of blue still there. its hard for the camera to pick it up,but its there. same blue as the new repro's are.


here is the other big clue that will hopefully determine the correct size decal. notes in the picture the bottom curve of the decal is still there. I figure it would be best to post this info on your thread. not much info out there for these type of flea frames and your thread pop's up the most on the search for me.

here is a piston that is almost 3inch diameter setting on top of the decal. curve just doesn't fit right.


here is a piston with just about 2.5 diameter. almost spot on...


also found this picture on my computer today and thought it was very interesting to look at and post it.
at first when I brought my bike frame in and started to look over it very close. I notes the top bolt was expose? that can't be factory? then when I started to transfer pictures from my computer I found this picture I save.
samething...top bolt expose.
 
#54
Thanks Brian, another member on here Slow Greg sent me a nice decal he had from before as well. Also, my frame had that same blue under all of the paint. Since I still have some MOPAR B5 (You called it "Charger Blue" LOL) I will use that. It's a bit too much pearl, but the hue is close.

They did some odd things with that caliper. I saw in some other photos that there was no room. I had to fabricate the JS plate on that side, and copied the left side for size. Ended up having the same fitment issues with the caliper mount, so I went in to the frame for the bottom hole, then welded it up so it's slotted at the frame. Curved washer finishes it out.

7 Degrees! It's cold up there. We're around 70 and sunny. We'll pay for it in July/August though. Thanks for the information and the photos!
 

delray

Well-Known Member
#55
this one picture/brochure in your posting with a Clinton motor is just killing me. looks to be the same frame as mine.


I was thinking my frame would of been a good one for the bunghlio engine that as never been completed or done.
guess what, I got the correct Clinton engine for my frame. maybe a custom bobber frame with 10inch white walls for the bunghio engine..

 
#56
Gol darn it!, two of those 3.5 Clintons just sold on eBay in the last month, one for $155 and one for $46. I wasn't in the market for one so I passed them up. I should have posted the links in the eBay classified section though, lesson learned. I am pretty sure the $155 one was indeed from a flea as the guy has a bunch of vintage kart stuff. What's the story on the 100MPH Special!?, Just above the flea in that brochure, looks like its running twin Mac's is that another Bug bike?.
 
#58
Gol darn it!, two of those 3.5 Clintons just sold on eBay in the last month, one for $155 and one for $46. I wasn't in the market for one so I passed them up. I should have posted the links in the eBay classified section though, lesson learned. I am pretty sure the $155 one was indeed from a flea as the guy has a bunch of vintage kart stuff. What's the story on the 100MPH Special!?, Just above the flea in that brochure, looks like its running twin Mac's is that another Bug bike?.
I was "watching" both of those, and dropped the ball. The earlier F71's used that Clinton, the later ones used the H35, or vice versa. I'm sure my "followers" will "correct" me, LOL. Until a member sent me copies of those brochures, I too was wondering what they were talking about in the ad about a record breaking bike. Not the first company to shove Mac two strokes in to make some power!

Very cool bike Dave! Your grandkids will love it. I like that idea of the disk brake on the jack shaft too, never seen that before
Most of the Bugs came like that. It's a very efficient way to stop, (as long as the chain holds) and I don't know why more bikes aren't done that way. Even modern builds tend to have much larger discs with juice brakes. With this cobbled up job, I can easily lock up the rear tire. I did note that I turned the rotor blue after riding it back home with the throttle stuck WOT. LOL! It STILL works great! Thanks for the comment. It'll be "blue" at some point. I ride it most days.
 

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