Home Machine Shop

Oldsalt

Well-Known Member
#21
You're right Steven, not one of the machine tools that HF sells is worth owning. All are junk. There is a lot of decent stuff there, for the money, but after looking carefully at their lathes and mill/drill and etc. I would not pack any of that stuff home if it were free.
 
#22
You're right Steven, not one of the machine tools that HF sells is worth owning. All are junk. There is a lot of decent stuff there, for the money, but after looking carefully at their lathes and mill/drill and etc. I would not pack any of that stuff home if it were free.
Well, it seems to me that that's a pretty strong statement. People are building seviceable machines from these things if not precision ones. Seems the real benefit is if you have some really nice equipment and need to do some junk jobs and don't want to put wear and tear on your mega buck machine. Would that be a good use for them?
 
#23
I've had this HF 9x20 lathe for several years now...

I've used numerous bigger and better lathes, but this one has made literally hundreds of axles, spacers, bushings, bungs, manifolds and velocity stacks...

It has proven to be worth the $700 I paid for it, and if you're a guy who likes to tinker with small projects at home, this lathe would probably be able to make most of the stuff you want...

But, if you take a look at my tool box, you can tell I'm not extremely picky about tools...
 
#24
The HF stuff can work just fine for hobby users. Several of the mills and lathes are sold under different brands, and some have a "following" of sorts. There are sites dedicated to mini lathe and mill.

Sure, there are some elitists that look down their nose at any cheap "junk" like this... usually the guys who have earned a living using high end equipment that your employer paid for, and none of us mortal hobby guys can afford... or justify the cost.

Do I really need a $15,000 mill when all I want is something to play with now and then? Or a top of the line welder for an occasional basic use? If I need a forklift or a loan from the bank to get it home... no thanks. lol

I just bought a HF Mig on sale for $70 just so I have something to play with. Never had one before.. always wanted to try it. If I end up finding a lot of use for it, then maybe I will look into upgrading to something nicer. Same goes for my HF lathe and mini mill. They work fine... I'm not a machinist and I'm not using them to make a living or save a life.
 

Oldsalt

Well-Known Member
#25
Sure, there are some elitists that look down their nose at any cheap "junk" like this... usually the guys who have earned a living using high end equipment that your employer paid for, and none of us mortal hobby guys can afford... or justify the cost.

Do I really need a $15,000 mill when all I want is something to play with now and then?
I'm truely sorry that I seen to have come across as an elitist that looks down my nose at cheap junk. But metal working is important to me.

The fact is that I have never worked as a machinist or had anyone pay for me to use high end equipment. I too am a mortal hobby guy. But I know manual machines quite thourghly and largely from a hobbist point of view. My old 13 inch Clausing lathe cost me $1600 dollars. I have a larger lathe but it almost goes unused because it is not in my hobby shop and is unhandy to use for the generally small items I machine. My mill is a $1700 [they are now about 2 grand] model from Grizzly. The smallest single phase 220V. unit that still has a knee. Again I have a larger mill but it is not in my hobby shop and is rarely used. My little hobby machine shop was supplied with a mill and lathe for around 35 hundred. About the price of a 15 year old car that you'd buy for your kid.

I stand by the statement that all of the HF manual machie tools are of the lowest common denominator which the word 'junk' aptly discribes. The ways on the lathes and the mills are crudely machined. I didn't believe it was possible to make anyting that poorly on a machine tool and expect it to work on anything except wood until vewing them. The lead screws have terrorable backlash even when new so it is easy to guess what will be the case down the line. I could go on but you get the idea. My little Grizzy mill was made in China and the HF stuff is made in China. The difference is that the HF machine is the cheapist and worst that can be produced and the Grizzy, for instance, is acceptable and cost a little more. Not 1955 Bridgeport nice, mind you, but acceptable. There really is a difference between a 7 hundred dollar HF 9 inch lathe and, for instance, a less than thousand dollar 9 inch sold by Enco.

If you are making bushings and axles and things like that, and you have some experience a HF unit will likely suffice. If a person without experience really wants to learn to do machine work he will be miles ahead to spend the few hundred bucks more. It still won't be a Mori Seki or 10EE Monarch lathe but will not be a handycap to learning and doing.
 
#27
The x2 and x3 mills made by sieg are sold by HF, grizzly and a few other outlets.
That's what i am getting for starters. Lots of bolt-on stuff for them and plenty of support forums and tweaks. wondering if i should go for the x3; not as many people have that one as far as i can see on the home machine forums. there are also mt3 and r8 versions of both. good deals on the MT3 ones right now.
 
#28
There are cnc conversions for them that will run from a laptop. There is also a place that sells them already converted dont have a link but should be easy to find.
 
#30
been watching this thread , good info in it and ideas too. the horrible fright mills and lathes are the lowest in the pile .but all the grizzly, jet ,speed way , tools now (Cummings) hdc , princess auto ,Bolton, horrible fright blaw blaw blaw are made by sieg just different colors and small changes to the run . all have there good and bad .they can be a useful tool and a decent product can be made on them .been watching this channel for years YouTube - minibulldesign's Channel . he uses them ,he tells in one of his vids some of the problems and draw backs of the import stuff and how some of the weak points have been useful in certain machining operations.the main thing in getting one of these machines they aren't big heavy machines the harbor freight 7x14 lathe is only like 100 lbs . but looking at these now there like a 100 lbs heavier about the same size over all but almost 200 lbs . well in tools like this weight is good the more it weighs the better .MINI LATHES, Lathemaster.com offers 9x30 mini lathe, 8x14 mini lathe, mini mills, chucks & accessories
still no great super strong American made tool but its not a atlas,craftsman , but :shrug: what i can tell any one looking at getting one for these is this , look around check out the different places that have them . there is differences in the tools and gear that come with them .get the best on you can afford and read up on the fixes and improvements people have made to them .if any one wants i have a pile of links to different places that have tools and parts/ machines like these let me know and i can post them .
 
#31
been watching this thread , good info in it and ideas too. the horrible fright mills and lathes are the lowest in the pile .but all the grizzly, jet ,speed way , tools now (Cummings) hdc , princess auto ,Bolton, horrible fright blaw blaw blaw are made by sieg just different colors and small changes to the run . all have there good and bad .they can be a useful tool and a decent product can be made on them .been watching this channel for years YouTube - minibulldesign's Channel . he uses them ,he tells in one of his vids some of the problems and draw backs of the import stuff and how some of the weak points have been useful in certain machining operations.the main thing in getting one of these machines they aren't big heavy machines the harbor freight 7x14 lathe is only like 100 lbs . but looking at these now there like a 100 lbs heavier about the same size over all but almost 200 lbs . well in tools like this weight is good the more it weighs the better .MINI LATHES, Lathemaster.com offers 9x30 mini lathe, 8x14 mini lathe, mini mills, chucks & accessories
still no great super strong American made tool but its not a atlas,craftsman , but :shrug: what i can tell any one looking at getting one for these is this , look around check out the different places that have them . there is differences in the tools and gear that come with them .get the best on you can afford and read up on the fixes and improvements people have made to them .if any one wants i have a pile of links to different places that have tools and parts/ machines like these let me know and i can post them .
Hey, I am interested those sites. Like to know the best upgrades and mods for the HF machines.
 
#33
Hey, I am interested those sites. Like to know the best upgrades and mods for the HF machines.
ok you asked and you shall receive
we have LittleMachineShop.com - Catalog
nice selection of parts and some up grades have heard good stuff about there tools .pricey tho

then Machine Tools
has some tools ,have a bigger better version of the mini lathe 7 x16

Sherline Direct: WELCOME TO OUR ON-LINE WEBSTORE have heard good things about tooling but not anything for the harbor fright machines in parts .tools should fit

metal Lathe | Mini Lathes, Lathe, Small Metal Lathes & Combo La at Bolton Hardware
more mini mills and lathes some up grade parts . tinny on youtube has one of these seems to be a good machine

MINI LATHES, Lathemaster.com offers 9x30 mini lathe, 8x14 mini lathe, mini mills, chucks & accessories more machines and parts not sure if the same as the harbor fright or not . seems to be a good company .

ok that is what i have that i can find at the moment had more but lost them in the sys crash . as for looking into up grades check out yahoo groups there is lots of info on doing all kinds of stuff .search harbor fright 7x12 or 9x14

note i have not done any dealing with these company's so as to the fit ,quality ,service no idea . there just some of the ones i have ran across looking in to the lathes and seeing what is the best for the cash .
 

Oldsalt

Well-Known Member
#34
If anyone feels warm and cozy in the belief that HF does not order machine tools from China of a reduced quality and is thereby able to sell them at prices below, for instance, Enco and Grizzly, by all means continue to believe it.

Korndog. Please take my word for it...don't even consider any mill that has a Morris Taper in the quill. It must be an R8. I see that it is still being mentioned that some mills are available with ether. That would be as bad a mistake as buying a 3 in 1 machine that started this thread. Which, in it's turn, is almost as bad a mistake as buying a "mill/drill".

As said above. If all a person wishes to make is a steering head brass bushing or turn down the end of a jackshaft any ol' machine will at least marginally suffice. But if a guy wishes to actually do the kind of machine work that is commonly expected of a guy that owns a lathe and mill, stay far away from HF. Spend a couple of hundred more and avoid buyer's remorse. Then you won't have to spend a lot of time at web sites crying with other guys that own what you bought.
 
#35
I have to say I get a kick out of your posts Oldsalt. i know you are trying to keep me from going to hell. I do agree that not all Chinese items are the same, even if they look identical. Take the clone engine. I know my friend EC just bought a whole boatload of engines. They might look like the HF engine, but the are not identical. You are probably right that HF has spec'd a compromise part to reduce the cost compared to similar machines. I have noticed mill motor differences and can see your point.

If anyone feels warm and cozy in the belief that HF does not order machine tools from China of a reduced quality and is thereby able to sell them at prices below, for instance, Enco and Grizzly, by all means continue to believe it.

Korndog. Please take my word for it...don't even consider any mill that has a Morris Taper in the quill. It must be an R8. I see that it is still being mentioned that some mills are available with ether. That would be as bad a mistake as buying a 3 in 1 machine that started this thread. Which, in it's turn, is almost as bad a mistake as buying a "mill/drill".

As said above. If all a person wishes to make is a steering head brass bushing or turn down the end of a jackshaft any ol' machine will at least marginally suffice. But if a guy wishes to actually do the kind of machine work that is commonly expected of a guy that owns a lathe and mill, stay far away from HF. Spend a couple of hundred more and avoid buyer's remorse. Then you won't have to spend a lot of time at web sites crying with other guys that own what you bought.
 
#36
I have noticed mill motor differences and can see your point.
The lower quality of the electric motors and switches spec'd on HF machine tools is the bulk of the price reduction...

Enco, for example, specifies higher quality motors for their Chinese-made machine tools which look the same as the HF models, but the two brands are vastly different in actual power output and durability.
 

Oldsalt

Well-Known Member
#37
korndog

I hesitate to suggest it because it is difficult, even for the somwhat experianced, to determine the condition of a used machine. The upside is that there's a lot of good deals out their right now. Big commerical machines are all over and cheap. Home size stuff has significatly went down in price also. Take your time and look at ads and talks to lots of people and you'll run across lathes and mills that match your needs. But you MUST run the machines unless you don't mind buying a pig in a poke. So many times the word is that the machine is not hooked up to power. Would you, and I've said this before, buy a car that you are only allowed to test drive after you buy it and take it home? You don't need to buy new, and I know I'm preaching, but you gotta buy smart. Find someone that knows what is what regarding small machine tools and have them look over AND operate any candidate.

I have attached a couple of pics of my Chinise mill and my old Clausing 13 inch lathe. Both units have been used 8-10 hours a day lately to make 35 shafts like the one in the vise on the mill. These replacement splined shafts have to carry bearings and fit internally splined couplings or they will be scrap. One final keyway is being cut on the mill. But I'm getting 175 each for them. That is better than 6K for a few days work which isn't bad for a home shop and a retired crazy man. This stuff can't be produced on junk machines. Note the AC Inverter to make the mill vari-speed and also the 3 axis DRO to make things easier. In the picture of the Clausing lathe you will see that the chuck key is still in the chuck...thats a no-no. Also note the outragiously poor housekeeping. There is a huge ball of turnings wedged against the wall and between the lathe and the tool box. Better Homes and Gardens won't be doing an artical. The mill was more money than asked for by a couple of other sales outfits for a simular unit, but after looking it was plane that the one Grizzly imports was superior in quality and a bit more money. That same mill is now about 2 grand. As said before the old lathe was 16 hundred. It's an oldie but a goodie.

I also included a pic of one of the 1/4 scale models of antique engines that I make. Again, if all you EVER want to do is make a brass bushing for the steering head on your Taco the HF stuff will suffice. If you want to bore and lap cylinders and make pistons for gas engines, or any other more demanding operation, I think you should get machine tools you can really use.
 
#38
If anyone feels warm and cozy in the belief that HF does not order machine tools from China of a reduced quality and is thereby able to sell them at prices below, for instance, Enco and Grizzly, by all means continue to believe it.

Korndog. Please take my word for it...don't even consider any mill that has a Morris Taper in the quill. It must be an R8. I see that it is still being mentioned that some mills are available with ether. That would be as bad a mistake as buying a 3 in 1 machine that started this thread. Which, in it's turn, is almost as bad a mistake as buying a "mill/drill".

As said above. If all a person wishes to make is a steering head brass bushing or turn down the end of a jackshaft any ol' machine will at least marginally suffice. But if a guy wishes to actually do the kind of machine work that is commonly expected of a guy that owns a lathe and mill, stay far away from HF. Spend a couple of hundred more and avoid buyer's remorse. Then you won't have to spend a lot of time at web sites crying with other guys that own what you bought.
i agree that there is different levels of quality . just reading the different options on them some have plastic gears , weaker motors ,no extra tools .
some of them are really bad some of them not so bad . so i have a question to you , given you seem to know alot on these type tools . what kind of import tool brands do you recommend?

a Morris Taper in the quill oh ya bad bad idea . you set up and make a cut the chuck pops out and flys across the room . the only time i have ever heard using a morris taper is ok is if you have a draw bar holding it in the quill.
most drill presses use a taper to hold the chuck in and that is one of the things that makes them so dangerous to use as a mill . you side load the chuck and it pops out and can go flying across the room .
 

Oldsalt

Well-Known Member
#39
yellowhand

You got that right; the lion's share of the differences between two simular machines is often electronics. The lowest price guys here tell the China guys to put on the lowest quality motors available. The defect is hidden from all but folks like you. I understand that a lot of the low buck China electric motors incorporate alloyed copper, rather than straight copper, in the windings. Copper is currently very expensive. The amps and energy useage goes up and reliability goes down. We cannot blame China for an excess of low quality merchandise; The domestic importers are the ones that all too often feel they need to have the very lowest sale price to be competative in the U.S. market. 'He who pays the piper calls the tune'. The manufacturer in China is only produceing what was ordered.
 
#40
Again, if all you EVER want to do is make a brass bushing for the steering head on your Taco the HF stuff will suffice. If you want to bore and lap cylinders and make pistons for gas engines, or any other more demanding operation, I think you should get machine tools you can really use.
I think your closing statement sums it up perfectly...
 
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