BT 200X Predator 212 Stage 1 - Need Help

[Hannibal]

212 Predator with Supertrapp 3s Muffler and Stage 1 Kit (air filter, header, and jet) installed ... 3 mile test drive in Arizona desert, ran perfectly... Next day extreme difficulty getting started, bike took off on its own. Second attempt (numerous attempts) it struggled to run. Shut it off, and noticed the muffler plates blackened with what I believe are carbon deposits. Cleaned the muffler and attempted to start the next day with the same results. Checked everything from carburetor, plug, filter, gas tank and gas flow (to include jet), choke on, fuel on, throttle cable etc... Did not check spark... Tomorrow will replace plug with stage 1 kit plug... If it doesn't run, it will find a new home in the nearby Colorado River... Anyway, I'm not certain if the deposits in the muffler are carbon or burned oil but there are no indications of oil leaks anywhere, though my oil level was very high (since been corrected)... Before I provide some lucky fish a new home does anyone have any recommendations that I can try before I replace a new engine with less than 3 1/2 miles .. Thanx for your help...

 

[jocko2356]

Just some random thoughts:

How was the engine running before you installed this "performance" kit?

You said the "...bike took off on its own." Stuck throttle? I would start by making sure you have a good throttle return spring and everything works as it should. There is a nylock nut retaining the throttle arm (what the throttle cable attaches to); make sure it's not too tight. Check the governor linkage and make sure it's not binding. The stock Predator engine has a throttle return spring that slips over the end of the throttle cable; as you pull the throttle it compresses. I would recommend you ditch the stock spring and install a retrun spring acting directly on the throttle arm.

When you took out the spark plug, what did it look like? Was it black and loaded with carbon? That would be a good indication you have a rich mixture ...too rich. The plug tip insulator should be a light tan to light grey. In your attempts at re-starting the engine, pull the plug after a few failed attempts, especially if it doesn't light off. Look at the plug; is it wet? That would be fuel fouling. The wet coating of fuel can/will prevent the plug from sparking; electricity flowing the path of least resistance by going straight to ground using the fuel. Again, a good indication you have too rich a mixture.

As part of installing the "kit", did you check the float level? Me, myself and I would have done a basic rebuild/cleaning of the carb as opposed to simply changing the main jet.

This "Stage 1" kit ...is it supposed to work in conjunction with a muffler? Some of these "performance" kits are designed to run with an open pipe (which makes them stupid loud). If the carb is jetted for this open pipe condition then putting a muffler on it will alter the jetting requirements.

The SuperTrapp you're using, how many discs are you running? The more discs the freer the muffler flows at the expense of noise. If you're running less than the full stack of discs, it runs quieter but isn't as free-flowing ...again, effecting the jetting.

If you're not running the engine in the configuration required by the "kit" then your jetting is going to be off. You improve the intake track you have to equally improve the exhaust track otherwise the kit jet will be too rich. This is basic to any engine.

 

[Hannibal]

Just some random thoughts:

How was the engine running before you installed this "performance" kit?

You said the "...bike took off on its own." Stuck throttle? I would start by making sure you have a good throttle return spring and everything works as it should. There is a nylock nut retaining the throttle arm (what the throttle cable attaches to); make sure it's not too tight. Check the governor linkage and make sure it's not binding. The stock Predator engine has a throttle return spring that slips over the end of the throttle cable; as you pull the throttle it compresses. I would recommend you ditch the stock spring and install a retrun spring acting directly on the throttle arm.

When you took out the spark plug, what did it look like? Was it black and loaded with carbon? That would be a good indication you have a rich mixture ...too rich. The plug tip insulator should be a light tan to light grey. In your attempts at re-starting the engine, pull the plug after a few failed attempts, especially if it doesn't light off. Look at the plug; is it wet? That would be fuel fouling. The wet coating of fuel can/will prevent the plug from sparking; electricity flowing the path of least resistance by going straight to ground using the fuel. Again, a good indication you have too rich a mixture.

As part of installing the "kit", did you check the float level? Me, myself and I would have done a basic rebuild/cleaning of the carb as opposed to simply changing the main jet.

This "Stage 1" kit ...is it supposed to work in conjunction with a muffler? Some of these "performance" kits are designed to run with an open pipe (which makes them stupid loud). If the carb is jetted for this open pipe condition then putting a muffler on it will alter the jetting requirements.

The SuperTrapp you're using, how many discs are you running? The more discs the freer the muffler flows at the expense of noise. If you're running less than the full stack of discs, it runs quieter but isn't as free-flowing ...again, effecting the jetting.

If you're not running the engine in the configuration required by the "kit" then your jetting is going to be off. You improve the intake track you have to equally improve the exhaust track otherwise the kit jet will be too rich. This is basic to any engine.

Thanx for your comment. It was running fine before and after I installed the Stage 1. The accumulation of carbon or burned oil is excessive and after I cleaned the plates and started the engine all 6 plates were completely covered again within 3 or 4 minutes of use. I suspect it may be oil which is being burned due to overfilling. I did smell gas though when I first noticed the problem. In a few minutes I'll put a new plug in and see if it will run. Seems the deposits in the muffler were excessive and the build up too rapid. Maybe too much oil? ... Thanx again

 

[mustangfrank]

212 Predator with Supertrapp 3s Muffler and Stage 1 Kit (air filter, header, and jet) installed ... 3 mile test drive in Arizona desert, ran perfectly... Next day extreme difficulty getting started, bike took off on its own. Second attempt (numerous attempts) it struggled to run. Shut it off, and noticed the muffler plates blackened with what I believe are carbon deposits. Cleaned the muffler and attempted to start the next day with the same results. Checked everything from carburetor, plug, filter, gas tank and gas flow (to include jet), choke on, fuel on, throttle cable etc... Did not check spark... Tomorrow will replace plug with stage 1 kit plug... If it doesn't run, it will find a new home in the nearby Colorado River... Anyway, I'm not certain if the deposits in the muffler are carbon or burned oil but there are no indications of oil leaks anywhere, though my oil level was very high (since been corrected)... Before I provide some lucky fish a new home does anyone have any recommendations that I can try before I replace a new engine with less than 3 1/2 miles .. Thanx for your help...

If you're serious about getting help how about knocking off the asshat threats like "If it doesn't run, it will find a new home in the nearby Colorado River"? Lots of people, not just members, read these forum posts and what you type doesn't go away. We have enough threats to our fossil fuel powered hobbies, please don't add to it.

I'd ask you if you were kidding but the last time I did in September about this same engine issue all I got was a smartass quote response...

Bro, it's super maxxed out with oil. I put two quarts of 10 30w in it. I think the capacity is 1/2 quart....So, I've got that base covered for at least the next two or three years....

Please tell us you are kidding

"Gotta keep ya guessing"... Clint Eastwood

Thread: First Minibike & Engine Swap - Need Help | Page 3 | OldMiniBikes.com

 

[toomanytoys]

If you're serious about getting help how about knocking off the asshat threats like "If it doesn't run, it will find a new home in the nearby Colorado River"? Lots of people, not just members, read these forum posts and what you type doesn't go away. We have enough threats to our fossil fuel powered hobbies, please don't add to it.

I'd ask you if you were kidding but the last time I did in September about this same engine issue all I got was a smartass quote response...





Thread: First Minibike & Engine Swap - Need Help | Page 3 | OldMiniBikes.com

Like the guy who said he was going to start shooting his tillotson if it didn't work.

It's funny how most of these problems start when people fool with the governor without adding supporting mods....

 

[Hannibal]

Okay, I replaced the spark plug, it was covered with carbon. It isn't an oil related problem. It's burning rich and emitting black smoke, and the engine struggles to run. I did run it without the muffler. I'll add the additional spring as you suggested today or tomorrow. The carb will be coming off shortly for inspection, if not replacement. I may also replace the kit jet with the original predator jet. I'll have to examine the carb closely, though I doubt I'll know what I'm looking for..

 

[Hannibal]

Just some random thoughts:

How was the engine running before you installed this "performance" kit?

You said the "...bike took off on its own." Stuck throttle? I would start by making sure you have a good throttle return spring and everything works as it should. There is a nylock nut retaining the throttle arm (what the throttle cable attaches to); make sure it's not too tight. Check the governor linkage and make sure it's not binding. The stock Predator engine has a throttle return spring that slips over the end of the throttle cable; as you pull the throttle it compresses. I would recommend you ditch the stock spring and install a retrun spring acting directly on the throttle arm.

When you took out the spark plug, what did it look like? Was it black and loaded with carbon? That would be a good indication you have a rich mixture ...too rich. The plug tip insulator should be a light tan to light grey. In your attempts at re-starting the engine, pull the plug after a few failed attempts, especially if it doesn't light off. Look at the plug; is it wet? That would be fuel fouling. The wet coating of fuel can/will prevent the plug from sparking; electricity flowing the path of least resistance by going straight to ground using the fuel. Again, a good indication you have too rich a mixture.

As part of installing the "kit", did you check the float level? Me, myself and I would have done a basic rebuild/cleaning of the carb as opposed to simply changing the main jet.

This "Stage 1" kit ...is it supposed to work in conjunction with a muffler? Some of these "performance" kits are designed to run with an open pipe (which makes them stupid loud). If the carb is jetted for this open pipe condition then putting a muffler on it will alter the jetting requirements.

The SuperTrapp you're using, how many discs are you running? The more discs the freer the muffler flows at the expense of noise. If you're running less than the full stack of discs, it runs quieter but isn't as free-flowing ...again, effecting the jetting.

If you're not running the engine in the configuration required by the "kit" then your jetting is going to be off. You improve the intake track you have to equally improve the exhaust track otherwise the kit jet will be too rich. This is basic to any engine.

Removed the carb, inspected it inside and out, nothing wrong... BUT... behind the carb is a black plastic mount which holds the fuel line, and exhaust hoses. There was a gasket in front, but no gasket in the rear. It looks like it came from the factory absent a rear gasket. That is, if there should be a rear gasket. The plastic mount where it is attached to the block is worn, which seems to indicate it was installed without one. Could that be the problem which is causing it to run rich? . thanks

 

[jocko2356]

Removed the carb, inspected it inside and out, nothing wrong... BUT... behind the carb is a black plastic mount which holds the fuel line, and exhaust hoses. There was a gasket in front, but no gasket in the rear. It looks like it came from the factory absent a rear gasket. That is, if there should be a rear gasket. The plastic mount where it is attached to the block is worn, which seems to indicate it was installed without one. Could that be the problem which is causing it to run rich? . thanks

I'd have to look at my engine but I'm thinking not. You didn't answer some of the critical Q's I asked, in particular, what does the plug look like? This is the key to how your engine is running ...the key to what kind of fuel mixture you're feeding the engine. A missing gasket, if true, would potentially create an air leak into the post carb airstream/fuel mixture ...which, if anything, would create indications of a lean condition. This is why looking at the condition of the plug is important.

 

[jocko2356]

Thanx for your comment. It was running fine before and after I installed the Stage 1. The accumulation of carbon or burned oil is excessive and after I cleaned the plates and started the engine all 6 plates were completely covered again within 3 or 4 minutes of use. I suspect it may be oil which is being burned due to overfilling. I did smell gas though when I first noticed the problem. In a few minutes I'll put a new plug in and see if it will run. Seems the deposits in the muffler were excessive and the build up too rapid. Maybe too much oil? ... Thanx again

LOL ...really. One has to take for granted that some of the basic stuff is done properly ...like making sure the crankcase oil is at its correct level. I mean, come on man ...to quote a popular phrase ...give us a break here. Service the freakin' motor as it should be. If you f ....'ed up and got too much oil in the crankcase then fix it! How do you expect the engine to run well if you're dicking up something as simple as the proper oil level?

Rather than plod on down the road of ineptitude, stop and start all over ...it's called a Mulligan. Drain the oil and refill the crankcase with the correct amount and proper viscosity of oil. MEASURE IT before you just dump oil into the crankcase and overfill the thing.

 

[Hannibal]

LOL ...really. One has to take for granted that some of the basic stuff is done properly ...like making sure the crankcase oil is at its correct level. I mean, come on man ...to quote a popular phrase ...give us a break here. Service the freakin' motor as it should be. If you f ....'ed up and got too much oil in the crankcase then fix it! How do you expect the engine to run well if you're dicking up something as simple as the proper oil level?

Rather than plod on down the road of ineptitude, stop and start all over ...it's called a Mulligan. Drain the oil and refill the crankcase with the correct amount and proper viscosity of oil. MEASURE IT before you just dump oil into the crankcase and overfill the thing.

LOL ...really. One has to take for granted that some of the basic stuff is done properly ...like making sure the crankcase oil is at its correct level. I mean, come on man ...to quote a popular phrase ...give us a break here. Service the freakin' motor as it should be. If you f ....'ed up and got too much oil in the crankcase then fix it! How do you expect the engine to run well if you're dicking up something as simple as the proper oil level?

Rather than plod on down the road of ineptitude, stop and start all over ...it's called a Mulligan. Drain the oil and refill the crankcase with the correct amount and proper viscosity of oil. MEASURE IT before you just dump oil into the crankcase and overfill the thing.

LOL ...really. One has to take for granted that some of the basic stuff is done properly ...like making sure the crankcase oil is at its correct level. I mean, come on man ...to quote a popular phrase ...give us a break here. Service the freakin' motor as it should be. If you f ....'ed up and got too much oil in the crankcase then fix it! How do you expect the engine to run well if you're dicking up something as simple as the proper oil level?

Rather than plod on down the road of ineptitude, stop and start all over ...it's called a Mulligan. Drain the oil and refill the crankcase with the correct amount and proper viscosity of oil. MEASURE IT before you just dump oil into the crankcase and overfill the thing.

"I'd have to look at my engine but I think not."... The Predator 212 carburetor requires the use of and comes equipped with 3 gaskets from the factory. My Predator 212cc was supplied with two. A vent leak clearly exists. The engine needs a thorough inspection to determine the existence of possible vent leaks, carburetor or potential oil related operational problems as well. The owner's manual suggests the use of 10/30 weight oil, and more oil than recommended by go kart enthusiasts and small engine mechanics familiar with the Predator 212 engine. It is best to follow the manufacturer's recommendations even though it may be regarded by others as overfill or excessive. I prefer the excess recommended by the manufacturer. The elevation where the engine is operating may also require the use of either a smaller or larger jet. Mine clearly requires one that is smaller for proper operation. And the condition of the spark plug is generally the end result of an occuring problem elsewhere in the carburetor or the engine itself and not the cause of that problem or those problems. I thank you for your initial comment, and may I suggest that a self anointed armchair and uncertified small engine mechanic such as yourself recognize your ineptitude, and avoid similar presumptuous commentary in the future? ... And try working on those reading comprehension skills as well... Have a good evening...

 

[jocko2356]

I thank you for your initial comment, and may I suggest that a self anointed armchair and uncertified small engine mechanic such as yourself recognize your ineptitude, and avoid similar presumptuous commentary in the future? ... And try working on those reading comprehension skills as well... Have a good evening...[/QUOTE]

Hannibal, please accept my apologies; I was out of line and making exceptionally rude comments based on information I was not aware of. That would be called exhibiting a good case of hoof in mouth disease. I’m not sure what bug had crawled up my ass when I sat down to write what I did, but I’m sure I could come up with it if I thought about it long enough. Regardless, I was in the wrong and I am sorry.

I guess my point is that sometimes you can get so wrapped up in making “performance” mods …too many performance mods at one time …that it makes it difficult to determine what’s gone wrong when things turn sour. That may be your situation, it may not be. Oil being the life blood of any engine, especially air cooed engines, I’m in agreement with you using the correct level of oil; this is not overfilling the engine. It seems the guys who use a lower level of oil are apparently into racing according to what you posted …they aren’t necessarily interested in engine longevity as much as winning races I suppose.

I hope you get your motor issues worked out and please accept my apologies.