212 Predator with race rods and flywheel vs 301 / 420 Predator stock

#1
It occured to me that when adding the cost of racing rods and flywheels to ungoverned 212 predators that we are matching or exceeding the costs of the larger engines run as stock. The larger engines are probably going to still produce more HP and the cost in labor for custom fabrication of mounting and throttle and exhaust assemblies for the big motors might be similar to the disassembly and reassembly of the predator 212s when installing the rods and flywheels.... ( and maybe valve train mods etc etc ) So what is the downside... I believe the 301 and 420 motors weigh about 35 pounds more and will require heavier Torque Converter of Clutch in case the extra weight bothers anyone. Of course to match performance with the modded hi revving 212s the sprockets and gearing ratios will have to be changed.
 
#3
I had a elec start 16hp duromax a few years ago on a mud motor when i lived in s la, didn't seem like it weighed much more then the smaller series of clones/honda engines to be honest, I'd say 15 lbs maybe? I'll have to check.

odd when i checked the prices on ebay for a 301 vs 420, the 420's popped up cheaper
 
#6
At $799 it aint cheap especially considering all the other extras required... which actually might not be that different for a Predator 420 engine that sells for just under $300 when on sale. They really dont say what exactly is in the motor or that it is intended for racing and has race ready components.... The point is that it costs $500 more than the 420cc Predator motor and even that motor would be a beast compared to the
212cc motor. No doubt it would be a hell of a shaker but if mounted with piston travel front to back on the vehicle, it might not be noticed as much.

So for a fair comparison what if we take the extra $500 and throw some race ready parts into the 420ccc motor. It would probably weigh a little less but when really reving might be approaching the same power as the 625cc single.

Another question... is there a torque converter available to mount on the 625cc motor that could be used in a vehicle ?
 
#7
At $799 it aint cheap especially considering all the other extras required... which actually might not be that different for a Predator 420 engine that sells for just under $300 when on sale. They really dont say what exactly is in the motor or that it is intended for racing and has race ready components.... The point is that it costs $500 more than the 420cc Predator motor and even that motor would be a beast compared to the
212cc motor. No doubt it would be a hell of a shaker but if mounted with piston travel front to back on the vehicle, it might not be noticed as much.

So for a fair comparison what if we take the extra $500 and throw some race ready parts into the 420ccc motor. It would probably weigh a little less but when really reving might be approaching the same power as the 625cc single.

Another question... is there a torque converter available to mount on the 625cc motor that could be used in a vehicle ?

yea there is a few of them you can run, a 780 is one off the top of my head. Might get by with a true comet 40 or 44 series as well. maybe even a china 40 would work on a mini bike since its so light. I don't think the weight is as big a deal as you seem to think it is, if there is even a weight difference between the 420. with the extra 225cc you won't have to run this engine as hard as you would a worked 212 or 420 and there is always the power potential for more. I bet the 625 has a stock cam and at only 9.0-1, its perfect for pump gas with a little more room to spare. you get quite a bit for your money too, a balanced rotatin assy, likely with billet rods/forged pistons, good 24mm carb, chargin coil, shaft mounted rockers, pressurized oil system with filter (thats a huge plus in my book). I'd be very surprised if it doesn't have a billet flyhweel as well. so yea its 500.00 more but look what you get for your money. 38ft lbs of tq at 2200 rpm, thats crazy and with a mild motor. you could gear it to run 100 mph and it would still pop a wheelie at will i bet lol
 
#8
pull start 212 37.5 lbs vs 420 elec start at 73 lbs. could yank the starter/key switch box/wires off the 420 if need be and knock 10-15 lbs off the 420. not too bad of a difference. you'll still need a 40 series tav for the 301/420 motors, might get by with a 30 on a mini bike though but i'd venture to guess a 40 series upgrade would happen. not sure a stock 301 or 420 will out hp a 212 with a rod/flywheel/cam/springs/exhaust/jetted carb either (maybe a stock 440cc 18hp duromax MIGHT). you are tryin to compare a stock 301/420 to a modded 212, thats why i thought i'd mention that 625. no replacement for displacement as they say. its for golf carts so doubt its some ragged edge racin motor, just a high cube stroker that probably idles like a stocker. its just a matter of preference, either a smaller cube high windin engine or go for a mild big torque motor. personally a i like big cube torque motors, but it can be fun to wind up a smaller one at times too. I'm gonna put a cammed 212 together for my manco t bird but that 625cc does get me thinkin if i get soem extra play money before I build the 212 up.
 
#9
I certainly get where you are coming from ,,, and I agree. I just wanted to play devils advocate. It has been my experience over many years that if something is being sold with any kind of exotic parts or features then those parts are definitely mentioned. You would be a poor poor businessman if you did not mention them as the whole world is competitive. (doubt billet rods and flywheel etc ) The other thing I might worry about somewhat are the mounting holes for attachments around the crank to the engine and the engine mounting bolt hole spacings. These things usually require custom exhaust as well where if you stick with the 212cc a lot of it is plug and play. What you may not have mentioned is the fact that at the lower stress levels this larger engine might see a thousand hours of run time vs any engine that has been souped up which might only see dozens of hours.

Overall what bothers me is the broad philosophical thing and that is when this much motor and money is being discussed we might as well be talking about real motorcycles with trannys. It is possible however that with the Torque converters and automatic operation, maybe we dont need real
transmissions that exist on real motorcycles except that we can acknowledge some motor cycles achieving 50/,60/.70 thousand miles. Real road cruisers. These TQ converter I just dont think could make it back and forth to the west coast over and over. But then again I could be wrong because come to think of it there are plenty of belt driven scooters that were made to cruise the highways for many thousands of miles.
 
#10
well of course for the money spent on some of these minis you could have a run of the mill cookie cutter motorcycle, but where is the uniqueness and fun in that? as far as I know, no one else offers a big cube stroker like this, which i think is basically a gx390 sized clone. so anything that fits a 420 should fit this. This may be why some things aren't mentioned but I also agree extra goodies are usually mentioned in ads. Maybe they are bein a bit hush hush on some details? trade secrets and all that jazz.

I'm not sure what bikes like the ridley use for a trans, but almost positive its a cvt of some sort similar to whats run on minis and go karts. cvts have been on snowmobiles forver and they seem to hold up pretty darn well to those high rpm/high hp 2 strokes. I bet a higher power capacity cvt then whats needed on a smaller hp engine could last up to daily use and yea, big mild motors will almost always outlast a smaller highly stressed motor. still sometimes its just plain fun to wring a smaller high rpm screamer out at speed.

If i were to drive coast to coast, rather throw the mini (s) in the back of my dually and go in comfort lol I just thought since we were bench racin/dreamin, why not throw that 625 into the discussion. always things to learn and a different persons perspective is always a plus to ponder. catch ya later, i have played enoiugh on here today, need to get back to my "barn turned into a shop" project so i can play with these toys lol
 

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