New 6.5hp clone govenor/surging problem?

Hondagx160DB

Hondagx160DB

New Member
#1
#1
Just put a clone on my mini bike and when I open the throttle all the way, the engine govenor kicks in and slows down a little bit but a couple seconds later it takes off again. It repeats this process the entire time I am going full speed. I have another mini bike with a real Honda GX 160 5.5hp with the govenor also still intact and it doesn't have this problem. It goes top speed and then backs off but stays at a constant speed. The only thing that is changed on the clone is that I put an AGK 2 stage header on it. I haven't done anything else yet but I have some stuff on order from AGK that hasn't came yet. Anyone have this problem before?
 
jprice

jprice

OldMiniBikes.com
#2
#2
factory carbs on a clone are lean, try going up a jet size, if you have a open air filter coming , i would change to the 140e-tube and a 35 jet that seems to work out nice,
 
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supernova

Banned
#3
#3
Read the thread titled "why remove the governer" read it carefully and ignore my fan club. The suggested fix will cure that surging forever, give you damn near as many revs as an ungoverned stock clone, and it only costs as much as the spring that's added!

Pay special attention to the parts where you must have zero tension on the added spring upon startup and at idle. The added spring will only have tension under acceleration if done properly and it's up to you to make sure it's done right! Failure to do so will result in your machine taking off at full throttle upon startup! Dont PM me asking me why it happened as you have been pre-warned it can happen!

 
Hondagx160DB

Hondagx160DB

New Member
#5
#5
Ok well the parts I have coming are : UNI filter and adapter, GX140 Emulsion tube, and a #92 main jet. That should work right?

SUPERNOVA: with your idea will I have to get billet parts or can I leave the internals stock? Can I just advance it so it revs a little higher than the surging stage? Also do I need valve springs because I don't really want to have to deal with internal work on this build, it's just for cruising around on:scooter:
 
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supernova

Banned
#7
#7
Hondagx160DB said:
Ok well the parts I have coming are : UNI filter and adapter, GX140 Emulsion tube, and a #92 main jet. That should work right?

SUPERNOVA: with your idea will I have to get billet parts or can I leave the internals stock? Can I just advance it so it revs a little higher than the surging stage? Also do I need valve springs because I don't really want to have to deal with internal work on this build, it's just for cruising around on:scooter:
Click to expand...
I'll make it simple. If you want it to stop surging use the spring, it'll stop it and allow the engine to make around 5000RPMs. You can adjust the surging out by turning the throttle stop screw in, making it slower and not allowing it to get to the advertised 3600 revs. but that kinda defeats the purpose of having the extra power. The carb work will only compliment the engine even in stock form and with an air cleaner and especially a header you'll need to do it to run right, I need to do it to mine since the header was added. I'd try the spring and see, you may not want to do anything else. I'd reccomend making sure your brakes are in tip top shape though!

I ride mine daily and it's plenty fast for me!:thumbsup:
 
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jprice

jprice

OldMiniBikes.com
#8
#8
ahh you right nova , i thought it started after he put the pipe on, he will deal with them jetting problems soon enough lol
 
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supernova

Banned
#9
#9
jprice said:
ahh you right nova , i thought it started after he put the pipe on, he will deal with them jetting problems soon enough lol
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Yeah not everyone is familiar with the surging issues, not all clones do it but all the HF ones I've had do. I had a gennie Honda gx200 that surged so it's something that can happen, it's because the factory does'nt calibrate tham to 3600revs. Apparently even the name brands are'nt immune to quality control problems.:shrug:
 
Oldschool

Oldschool

New Member
#11
#11
supernova said:
I'll make it simple. If you want it to stop surging use the spring, it'll stop it and allow the engine to make around 5000RPMs. I ride mine daily and it's plenty fast for me!:thumbsup:
Click to expand...
The surging issue can be caused by two things.
You have a lean carb and thats often the problem but you can also have a governer thats not set correctly

What a governer is is a closed loop feedback control system. Hunting is actualy too much feedback causing unstable opperation. In a lean hunt the governer is trying to compensate for an engine that is not got enough fuel to pick up the load right away and the engine stubles and surges. The governer can't correct for this and hunts. The other condition is too much feedback and because the governer is opperating in an unstable region.

The spring fix will often solve the feedback problem by moving the governer opperation out of the unstable region to someplace where it can find stability. There are a couple of other things to try like moving the spring closer in to the fulcrum point ( reducing sensativity and Feeback ).

This sounds like a lot of long hair math from high school eh?
It is its Caculas in action, the Laplace transofrm actualy. Engineers use this to develop analog feedback systems for amplifiers.
But the simple methods to reduce hunting are usualy dashpots or changing springs......

Thought I would try and inject some technical info into this thread because these engines also hunt on generators where you are trying to get the maximum feedback and for smooth opperation and constant speed.

This will save me some typing since the LK205 and DJ205 ( one gas one diesel )have these the two adjustments I was talking about ( spring presure and location ).
http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15874
Jim Thomas has explained this in his 2004 post
 
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supernova

Banned
#12
#12
The way he described the dead zone led me to believe it's the governer, mine did the exact same thing. It comes up to speed then the governer kicks in and you get zero response from the throttle and it seems to almost die. Then when the RPMs drop and the govener relaxes you have your throttle back, it's happened with three of mine and a few other folks I installed clones for. Two minibikes and a kart plus my two from the same batch, we all bought them at the same store fairly close to the same time is what also leads me to believe he's experiencing the same problem. I've had a carb issue on a black clone that was similar but obviously a fuel and not a throttle issue. I'll have to follow up here and see what he does to remedy the problem but I think I'm right, maybe not:shrug:
 
Oldschool

Oldschool

New Member
#13
#13
I think your right too Supernova.

Just trying to expand the undertstanding of governers a little.

The Jim Thomas repost was my attempt to try and put a little more meat on the bones.
But in all fairness the clones have one more trick up their sleaves, a third point of adjustment the factory ( the third "geometry issue" sounds to me like what your clones have, weights are fully extended and no longer allowing further throttle movement untill the rpms drop ) could have screw up and thats the angle of the arm to possition of the governer weights.

In any event the goal here is not to make these hold a single rock steady RPM but rather to function smoothly over the entire RPM range.
Extra return spring tension seems to lick that everytime.

I also own an LK205, Petter P series ( with the govern from hell well known for causing runaways if not adjusted correctly ). Honda governers on the other hand, as well as brigs are some of the best for easy opperation. Once you get them set they work well.
 
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mugwamp8

New Member
#14
#14
Fixed!!

I had the exact same problem on two harbour freight motors that I just bought. Someone suggested the quick fix below and it worked perfectly. The suging on both of them is gone and it even revs Use two zip ties. Cut the latching part off of one and trim the other one to 2 inches or so. Slip it through the black spring and then slide the locking part that you cut off on. Make sure there is some slack when the throttle is not being twisted as shown. The spring will fill the area between the two latches when twisted... Adjustable and cheap!
 
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supernova

Banned
#15
#15
Oldschool said:
I think your right too Supernova.

Just trying to expand the undertstanding of governers a little.

The Jim Thomas repost was my attempt to try and put a little more meat on the bones.
But in all fairness the clones have one more trick up their sleaves, a third point of adjustment the factory ( the third "geometry issue" sounds to me like what your clones have, weights are fully extended and no longer allowing further throttle movement untill the rpms drop ) could have screw up and thats the angle of the arm to possition of the governer weights.

In any event the goal here is not to make these hold a single rock steady RPM but rather to function smoothly over the entire RPM range.
Extra return spring tension seems to lick that everytime.

I also own an LK205, Petter P series ( with the govern from hell well known for causing runaways if not adjusted correctly ). Honda governers on the other hand, as well as brigs are some of the best for easy opperation. Once you get them set they work well.
Click to expand...
Some good info! Yeah the governers on the clones needed more attention from the factory but what can you do except work around it. You are amoung the few members here who I agree with concerning the governer issues on these engines. You know far more than I do about the manufacturing aspect, hell everything for that matter. Your advice is always valued!:thumbsup:
 
gbabins1

gbabins1

Active Member
#16
#16
Great info guys..... I have 3 clones and the newest one surges ( I installed it today) ...... I'll try the zip tie thing tomorrow. Thanks again
 
Oldschool

Oldschool

New Member
#17
#17
gbabins1 said:
Great info guys..... I have 3 clones and the newest one surges ( I installed it today) ...... I'll try the zip tie thing tomorrow. Thanks again
Click to expand...
Buy a spring.

The Zip tye fix is like putting a brick on your accelerator and calling it cruise control. Its a lazy man's governer bypass....

Solve your problem. There is enough posted information in this thread alone for you to
1 learn how a governer works and properly adjust it
2 modify the factory governer on your clone to make function properly ( that and some jetting may be required )

I know I sound like a cranky old fart but I am getting impatient with the number of people that don't read or in some selective cases lack any common sence.

Happy Christmas.
Place safe.....
 
gbabins1

gbabins1

Active Member
#18
#18
Yeah , I have zip ties lying around...I can try the spring when Home Depot opens :thumbsup:, I thought the outcome would be the same though. I did read SuperNovas entire posting in the other section....lots of good info. That's why I come here. Thanks guys:scooter:
 
Oldschool

Oldschool

New Member
#19
#19
That is by far the best thing to do for now.

Later on buy some racing parts and build an engine but you need to get your feet wet on a stock clone first and figuere out all the tricks

A few very simply small changes will make a world of difference in the way the engine runs without costing hardly any money at all......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqYoubPwzXo
See nice and smooth, idled well and pulled hard. This engine had no issues and would pull up to 4800 reliable RPM without any sort of bog or governer issues.
 
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creia

creia

#20
#20
I am reserrecting this thread as I believe my that HF 6.5 also fits into this category. I also did read "supernova's" previous entire (long) thread on this subject. (I also noticed that supernova has since been banned- was it because of his advice on how to "modify" the governor?:shrug:)
Let me make it perfectly clear- I am NOT looking to have the HF engine over rev above the factory designed 3,600 RPM! I DO want it to reach the FULL 3,600 RPM potential, however, which I believe it is not (See below)
WE have 2 DB's with identical gearing and tire sizes. One has a Tec 6 hp "Powersport" with K & N filter (with unmodified governor). The other DB has a HF 6.5 clone with K & N filter and upgraded jet and emulsion tube (and unmodified governor) The Tec revs to a noticeably higher RPM and higher speed (estimated to be at least 5 MPH more) than the HF-equipped DB. The HF engine starts, idles, and runs very well. It just does not seem to get to its full 3,600 RPM, as the governor seems to cut in prematurely and causes some slight surging.
My questions:
Is the spring or zip tie method a legitimate (and safe) correction?
It appears that the (stock) fuel tank must be removed to accomplish this- How difficult to remove the gas tank? Any pointers?
I apologize upfront to the forum "powers to be"if this is a forbidden discussion topic. I am sure you will let me know if it is!:eek:hmy:
 
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