Synthetic weight in 212 Predator & "simple" break in

[Dave.]

I almost cringe at posting this, with all the misc oil threads, but here goes...

I use the "cheap" Walmart synthetic 5W-30 in almost all of my small engines, because they are almost all Briggs, and Briggs lists 5W-30 synthetic as one of the best options for their motors.
Oil Recommendations | Briggs & Stratton

I've never thought about break-in on small engines before (oops), but none of my small engines got synthetic until they had run at least for a few hours, anyway.

The Predator 212 manual does not mention use of synthetic. Can/should I use 5W-30 in this engine, too, presumably after the break-in period?

I read a lot of threads and now I'm spooked with all the comments about this or that additive not being used any more in cars and the small engines needing that additive; or details about how the engine should be broken in. Geez, it seems so complicated.

I figured to do this. This is not for a "performance" bike. I'm not going to mod the engine.

-- Drain whatever oil is in the new engine. I have no idea what is in there, except it's slippery.

-- Put in 10W-30.

-- Run it for 10-15 minutes on idle, let it cool, run it for 10-15 minutes at low-medium loads, let it cool, then run it normally for the remainder of the break-in period, without revving it too high (but max is 3600 rpm, anyway), or loading it too heavily.

-- Change the oil after the 3-hour break-in period, replace with 5W-30 synthetic.

Anything else? Different? Thanks...

 

[JamnJM]

Your going to get mixed views on this subject......I never & my race engine builder states so to never allow a new engine to idle but lite blimp the throttle.

This seal the rings & cam better & the splash oil dipper does a better job too.

 

[RobK]

There's an old saying. "Opinions are like ***holes. Everybody's got one, and they all stink." Motor oil is one of those subjects with a million different opinions; "you can't break in a motor on synthetic", "you can't mix conventional and synthetic", "once you use synthetic you can't go back to conventional", etc., etc., etc. Myths About Synthetic Motor Oils Most of it's balony.
There are still folks who insist you have to change your oil every 3K miles, which was the recommendation in the '50s. No consideration of improvements in oil, metalurgy, manufacturing, engine controls, etc. Conventional and synthetic oils are completly interchangeable. However, synthetics flow better at cold temps, and resist breakdown at high temps, and have some other positive characteristics. Just make sure you follow the engine manufacturer for the right weight.

 

[Dave.]

Ok, thanks.

Since the break-in vs. synthetic is so controversial, what about the weight of synthetic for the Predator? Does anyone know? Synthetic is not listed in the Predator manual like it is for Briggs.

 

[Moedog07]

I have used Rotella T oil in almost all of my Predator 212's. It's a 15w-40 weight motor oil. I often do a ritual sacrificing small engine parts and pray to various motor oil gods to preserve my new clones from wear and tear.

I do actually use Rotella oil in my outdoor equipment. So far so good even though it is 15w-40. Castrol 10w-30 is my next choice. I have done a break in on the engines as well.

 

[graygoose420]

Your going to get mixed views on this subject......I never & my race engine builder states so to never allow a new engine to idle but lite blimp the throttle.

This seal the rings & cam better & the splash oil dipper does a better job too.

This is true. Letting new rings idle is bad . I use amsoil . They carry synthetic break in oil. That's all I use. After the 2 oil changes with the break in I go to the amsoil 10-30 full synthetic. Works great for me .
BTW my motors are highly modified . They take a beating and I have had no problems with the amsoil.

 

[RobK]

The Predator manual says 10W-30 above 32° F, 5W30 at 32° F or below. That should be right for conventional or synthetic. At least on a stock engine in normal conditions. I suppose of you're going to have a heavily modified engine or in very extreme conditions that might change. I use the Wal-Mart synthetic as well.

 

[Dave.]

The Predator manual says 10W-30 above 32° F, 5W30 at 32° F or below. That should be right for conventional or synthetic.

See, that's the thing. In the Briggs manuals, they don't recommend the same weights for conventional and synthetics:
Oil Recommendations | Briggs & Stratton

They say that synthetic 5W-30 covers the entire temp range from -22 to 104F.

That's why I was asking about this for the Predator engines, since they don't even mention synthetic in the manual.

I guess it's probably just not going to make much difference. I'll play it safe and not use synthetic during the break in, then when I change it out the first time, I'll use what I use for all the other small engines.

 

[manco12]

AMSOIL - Formula 4-Stroke 10W-30/SAE 30 Synthetic Small Engine Oil

I use this in one of my engines. You decide if it's right for you.

 

[JamnJM]

Thanks Greygoose420....

I use this oil as specially formulated for Air Cooled VW engines with extra zinc....

 

[Mini Motors]

What most people don't know about synthetics is that a majority of them are just petroleum oils that have had minor molecular changes and can then be legally called synthetic. Mobil One is a perfect example. That fact dispels the mixing and flushing myths.

The synthetics you need to stay away from during break in are the ones with additives like molybdenum. These oils will truly hinder break in. I use a Honda motorcycle oil with this in almost everything. I can't use it in my CT70, because of the wet centrifugal clutch, but if is totally approved in my full sized Honda with a wet manual clutch. It makes my transmission shift smoother than regular oils.

 

[Dave.]

Thanks for all the responses. I just went to Walmart and picked up some of their brand 10w30 for the break in. And I expect I will just use something similar for normal use, as well, since the manual says nothing about synthetic.

I was just trying to consolidate oils I have to keep on hand.

 

[65ShelbyClone]

I read a lot of threads and now I'm spooked with all the comments about this or that additive not being used any more in cars and the small engines needing that additive; or details about how the engine should be broken in. Geez, it seems so complicated.

This is not for a "performance" bike. I'm not going to mod the engine.

Then there is absolutely no need for a synthetic. You can use it, but it's a waste of money. I would break-in the engine on some house-brand 30-weight and then use a decent 5w-30 or 10w-30 afterward. Break the engine in like you plan on riding it. Load interspersed with engine braking will help seat the rings.

Mini Motors is right that a lot, and I mean a lot of "synthetic" oils started life as plain-old crude oil. It doesn't mean they're not good, because most are, but I think it's a disservice to the consumer being allowed to label them in the same manner as true, high-end synthetics.

There are still folks who insist you have to change your oil every 3K miles, which was the recommendation in the '50s. No consideration of improvements in oil, metalurgy, manufacturing, engine controls, etc.

This is why I often tell people that they change their oil far too frequently. They justify it with "playing it safe" or some such nonsense. Some do it at half of the factory-recommended interval. ut: Those 3000mi drain intervals were pushed by oil manufacturers for decades after they became excessive. It amounts to propaganda and those ad campaigns have a powerful, lasting effect on people who just don't know any better which is, unfortunately, the general public.

See, that's the thing. In the Briggs manuals, they don't recommend the same weights for conventional and synthetics:
Oil Recommendations | Briggs & Stratton

They say that synthetic 5W-30 covers the entire temp range from -22 to 104F.

This is where understanding the two numbers comes in. 0w-30, 5w-30, 10w-30, and straight 30 all thin out to the same viscosity as a "hot" 30-weight reference oil at operating temp; the leading "w" number only pertains to "cold" flow viscosity. The lower the leading number, the better it flows at low temperature.

 

[Mini Motors]

I belong to way too many forums(18!!). Many having to do with things involving engines, like OldMiniBikes. In these, oil is by far, the most discussed and argued about of any subject. My take on it is that while a quality oil is a good idea, all of my interests, except one, could be handled any decent oil. The exception is almost all Japanese motorcycles. And the reason is that the engine oil(not just the same type) is circulated through the transmission. And if you think about it, a car manual transmission uses 90w. The additive packages and the polymers get literally crushed between the gears. That's punishment that no engine can match. So, in an effort to keep my oil shelf not so cluttered, I use the Honda oil w/ Moly that I mentioned before in many of my engines. It doesn't come in a weight I can use in my car, but everything else gets it. And it truly makes a noticeable difference in my bike. It really shifts smoother.

Just my 2 cents.

But before I go, another 2 cents about 2 cycle synthetic. Unlike their 4 cycle "brother", most 2 stroke synthetics are not modified petroleum oil. Some are blends, so beware. But a full synthetic noticeably smokes less, at least giving the appearance of polluting less. I'm mentioning this as most of us here use engines of all types, and this info could be handy. I use Bel-Ray SI-7, available at most motorcycle shops.

Does that make 4 cents?

 

[Dave.]

Thanks Shelby and MiniMo. I couple of things:

1) If the oil says "full synthetic" are you telling me it's actually regular oil? That is really deceptive. I was buying the synthetic because (supposedly) it will last longer than normal oil and because (in Briggs case) it covers the entire temp range.

Sometimes, I get too busy and don't get to all the small engine oil changes before spring (in NC, I'm cutting the lawn way into December, and starting again in late February or March, so there is not a lot of down time.) So if I miss a change, I figure it's ok with the synthetic.

2) In that link I posted from Briggs, it is not just a matter of cold and hot viscosity, because they show normal 5W-30 only good up to maybe 45F, but they allow synthetic 5W-30 all the way above 100F. So there is a difference somewhere, in how the two behave in an engine, at least according to them. (That's where this whole thread started.)

As another anecdote, I noticed that the manual for the 79cc Greyhound does not spec 10w-30 at all. Instead it lists straight 30-weight, along with 5W-30 for lower temps. I have no idea why it would be different from the Predator engines, which spec 10w-30 for higher temp.

 

[65ShelbyClone]

1.) The exception is almost all Japanese motorcycles. And the reason is that the engine oil(not just the same type) is circulated through the transmission. And if you think about it, a car manual transmission uses 90w. The additive packages and the polymers get literally crushed between the gears. That's punishment that no engine can match. So, in an effort to keep my oil shelf not so cluttered, I use the Honda oil w/ Moly that I mentioned before in many of my engines. It doesn't come in a weight I can use in my car, but everything else gets it. And it truly makes a noticeable difference in my bike. It really shifts smoother.

Just my 2 cents.

2.) But before I go, another 2 cents about 2 cycle synthetic. Unlike their 4 cycle "brother", most 2 stroke synthetics are not modified petroleum oil. Some are blends, so beware. But a full synthetic noticeably smokes less, at least giving the appearance of polluting less. I'm mentioning this as most of us here use engines of all types, and this info could be handy. I use Bel-Ray SI-7, available at most motorcycle shops.

Does that make 4 cents?

1.) I don't know about other manufacturers or nowadays, but throughout the late '80s and '90s, Honda used engine oil in their automotive manual transmissions. Ford has been using ATF (about 8 to 10 weight) in many of theirs since the early '80s. That said, I have never done an oil analysis on any of my geartrain oils to see how much the viscosity sheared down in a normal drain interval.

2.) That's a good point. Although I'm not real picky as long as it's ashless, one two-cycle oil I like is Maxima Super M and it's a synthetic blend. Can't really go wrong with any of the name-brand smoker oils IMO unless the engine has very specific requirements.

1.) If the oil says "full synthetic" are you telling me it's actually regular oil?

2.) In that link I posted from Briggs, it is not just a matter of cold and hot viscosity, because they show normal 5W-30 only good up to maybe 45F, but they allow synthetic 5W-30 all the way above 100F. So there is a difference somewhere, in how the two behave in an engine, at least according to them. (That's where this whole thread started.)

3.) As another anecdote, I noticed that the manual for the 79cc Greyhound does not spec 10w-30 at all. Instead it lists straight 30-weight, along with 5W-30 for lower temps. I have no idea why it would be different from the Predator engines, which spec 10w-30 for higher temp.

1.) No, it's not "regular" oil. It is regular oil that has been improved with chemical processing which creates oil molecules that do not occur naturally. That's how it's "synthetic." Group IV and V base stocks are not derived from crude oil, which is why they are more expensive.

2.) Keep in mind that Briggs & Stratton brands their own oil and the synthetic will have the highest profit margin, so of course they want it to look the most attractive.

3.) It would be interesting to see the engineer's rationale for picking the oil recommendations that they did, but engineers weren't involved, so....

 

[Dave.]

...but engineers weren't involved, so....

Engineer? We don't need no steenking engineer! All we do is copy! :wink:

Sigh...yeah, but I bought one. :shrug: