Tri-Sport brakes

[wjustice]

Ok now i've been working on the RTS and have some questions. What is the difference from the jackshaft hydraulic brakes and the axle mounted setup? I can only find 1 pic in the gallery and it's from Steve Durham. What I can see is the angle pieces with 2 holes welded to the frame. Are these the caliper mounts or at least what the mount is bolted to?
While I am at it, where is the ID plate on the RTS diffs? I dont see one.

Found this one too.

 

[gumpit]

I think the biggest problem with jackshaft mounted brakes is that when the chain brakes you cant stop. But on the axle mounted ones and the chain brakes you can. Stopping is always a good thing... lol

 

[wjustice]

Yeah i've read that too. And realistically if 1 wheel is in some slimy stuff, it could spin backwards allowing the other to continue rolling and barely stop. I've had that happen on my dads hydrostatic drive IH cub cadet. I am sure that steve Durham or another knowledgeable member will have the answer to this.
I have copies of some of the original shop manuals for the RTS (some but not all). They call the diff a Holton HA252. I've searched and so far found nothing on these.

 

[steven Durham]

Wjustice : The picture of yous is not a Holtan differential it looks like a Peerless/Comet unit and the brackets for the brakes was used with the Borg Warner 100 series calipers and the standard 8 inch disc. The brakes in the picture is of what I went to when I had way too many failures using the Borg Warner components. What the picture does not show is the rest of the mounting brackets for the Wilwood calipers and I went to 10 inch disc on billet
Hubs. Steve

 

[steven Durham]

The one thing about the Holtan differential was the Tri-sport had just two bearings carrying the thrust load two ways, one in the normal drive rolling mode and the other in the force of side load pulling outward on the differentials axle shafts. So the factory took the differential apart and braised the snap ring to the axle shaft. When I rebuilt the bottom end I put in new 1 inch bearings but these bearings did not have the concentric lock collars, they just had small set Allen screws and I was riding my trike back in Missouri and one axle pulled out of the differential. Kind of ruined my trip to Trike Week.
So make sure that the bearings you use have the lock collars.
Steve

 

[wjustice]

The diff in mine looks like the one in the picture of yours. Quite a bit larger then the peerless 100 series and the bolts are evenly spaced. The spacing around my diff looks about the same as yours too. So if I can fab some mounts and add the discs, I should be able to set it up similar to the stock dual disc setup. My plan is to use MCP master cyl and the billet 1.375 caliper in the stock j/s setup. Once I have the parts, then I can see what is needed to mount the calipers to the frame (floating).
In my talks with Mr Grace he mentioned the trouble you had with the bearings. I picked up new ones for the jackshaft and made sure that I got the ones with cam-locks. :thumbsup:

 

[duner777]

trisport / dunecycles

ok now i've been working on the rts and have some questions. What is the difference from the jackshaft hydraulic brakes and the axle mounted setup? I can only find 1 pic in the gallery and it's from steve durham. What i can see is the angle pieces with 2 holes welded to the frame. Are these the caliper mounts or at least what the mount is bolted to?
While i am at it, where is the id plate on the rts diffs? I dont see one.

found this one too.

ALSO THE BRAKE ON THE JACK SHAFT STRETCHES THE MAIN DRIVE CHAIN BECAUSE THE WEIGHT LOAD IS PULLING ON YOUR DRIVE CHAIN, AND ESPECIALLY IF YOUR USING THAT TINY #40 CHAIN. I USE THE 520 OR 530 CHAIN Like on the street Bikes,WAY STRONGER. BUT THERE IS MONEY INVOLVED ON THE CHANGE OVER. FROM 40- To THE 50 or 520-530 Chain.

 

[duner777]

The one thing about the Holtan differential was the Tri-sport had just two bearings carrying the thrust load two ways, one in the normal drive rolling mode and the other in the force of side load pulling outward on the differentials axle shafts. So the factory took the differential apart and braised the snap ring to the axle shaft. When I rebuilt the bottom end I put in new 1 inch bearings but these bearings did not have the concentric lock collars, they just had small set Allen screws and I was riding my trike back in Missouri and one axle pulled out of the differential. Kind of ruined my trip to Trike Week.
So make sure that the bearings you use have the lock collars.
Steve

GOOD IDEA ABOUT CONCENTRIC BEARINGS, HERE IS A MORE SIMPLE. IDEA AS USED ON THE DUNECYCLES. USE THE THICK WALL PVC PIPE IT IS BEST TO USE A PIPE CUTTER, THE LITTLE PORTABLE ONES, BECAUSE IT MAKES A STRAIGHT CUT. SO ALL YOU DO IS FILL IN THE SPACES WITH THE TUBES, AND IT KEEPS WATER OUT A LITTLE BETTER. THE MORE YOU USE THOSE COLLARS THE MORE YOU HAVE, FREEZE LOCK-UPS TRYING TO GET THIS STUFF OFF, ALSO SET SCREWS FLARE AND SWEDGE THUS MAKING IT HARD TO GET THE AXLE OFF WHEN NEEDED. HOPE THIS IS A HELP. Mike............

 

[duner777]

here is another one, with the jackshaft brake, it will stretch the chain alot, especially when using those cheap original #40 chain.

YES THOSE TWO BRACKETS ARE WHAT HOLD THE CALIPERS, ALL JUNK, GET A CALIPER FOR DIRT CHEAP OFF ONE OF THOSE POCKET RROCKET BIKES, PERFERBALLY THE REAR CALIPER, THERE DIRT CHEAP ON EBAY, UNDER USED ASIAN BIKE PARTS. I BELIEVE THERE IS A SECTION DEDICATED TO BRAKES, I BOUGHT ONE REALLY TRICK CALIPER FOR 35DOLLARS.. THEN JUST GET A PLATE DRILL HOLES AND USE BUSHINGS TO SPACE AWAY FROM THE IRREGULAR MOUNT SURFACE. USE A 10INCH ROTOR, THOSE LITTLE STOCK ROTORS HEAT UP AND ARE TOO THIN AND DIAMETER TOO SMALL CAUSING A LOT OF BRAKE FADE FROM THE HEAT.
GO TO A SITE CALLED MOTIVATIONAL TUBING THEY HAVE THE ROTORS AND BILLET MOUNT HUBS. FOR A DECENT PRICE. Mike....

 

[duner777]

here is another one, with the jackshaft brake, it will stretch the chain alot, especially when using those cheap original #40 chain.

YES THOSE TWO BRACKETS ARE WHAT HOLD THE CALIPERS, ALL JUNK, GET A CALIPER FOR DIRT CHEAP OFF ONE OF THOSE POCKET RROCKET BIKES, PERFERBALLY THE REAR CALIPER, THERE DIRT CHEAP ON EBAY, UNDER USED ASIAN BIKE PARTS. I BELIEVE THERE IS A SECTION DEDICATED TO BRAKES, I BOUGHT ONE REALLY TRICK CALIPER FOR 35DOLLARS.. THEN JUST GET A PLATE DRILL HOLES AND USE BUSHINGS TO SPACE AWAY FROM THE IRREGULAR MOUNT SURFACE. USE A 10INCH ROTOR, THOSE LITTLE STOCK ROTORS HEAT UP AND ARE TOO THIN AND DIAMETER TOO SMALL CAUSING A LOT OF BRAKE FADE FROM THE HEAT.
GO TO A SITE CALLED MOTIVATIONAL TUBING THEY HAVE THE ROTORS AND BILLET MOUNT HUBS. FOR A DECENT PRICE. Mike....

 

[james c]

first or all, does the bike have the dual caliper mounts? or jackshaft mount?
if its a dual mount setup then that model is a good one as mine does not have the differential disks, and i have slop in the jackshaft from wear

 

[wjustice]

My RTS has the jackshaft brake setup. Since I am going to have to break it all down just to replace some bearings, I'm looking at converting to dual while I'm there. Since the axle setup appears the same, I'm going to mount discs (still deciding which ones) and fab caliper mounts (MCP billets). However, I'm not sure maybe someone can tell me, can I run dual MCP calipers with a single MCP master cyl?
While I'm here a couple more questions. Is the set screw all that holds the u-joint to the axle and diff stub shaft? I want to open up and regrease the diff. Is there anything I should watch for? The parts diagram has springs and I dont want them flying off

 

[steven Durham]

wjustice ; The MPC master cylinder should be able to handle two calipers. The bore of the master cylinder has a lot to do wit the braking pressure and the volume of fluid moved.
My tri-sport's original Borg Warner master cylinder worked great with the twin piston calipers that I used. The bore on that was 5/8 inch. You should call Martin and ask the engineers on their opinion.
When I last rebuilt my jack shaft. I had 2 new jack shafts made from a high grade tool steel, and had the key way's cut only where needed. So the shaft was stronger around the bearings and where the torque converter butt up to the bearing mount.
Does your trike have the chain idle sprocket mounted on a spring supported arm ?
About the differential they were not that hard to work on. I would like to see your parts page your talking about.
Steve

 

[wjustice]

Steve - All the info I have found is that the M/C are either 3/4 or 7/8" bore. I would guess they should be ok but i'm not sure if the calipers are single or dual piston.

My RTS has the adjustable idler, not the spring mounted.

And the parts page...

 

[steven Durham]

wjustice : The Borg Warner 100 series calipers are just single piston in design but the are full floating in style. To me just too light weight in braking force and the rotors are too thin and cause some brake fade. Weather you stick with what you have will always be a parts issue looming ahead. Or cut to the chase and side with safety and replace the disc with thicker slotted rotors and billit hubs. You must have caliper mounts that allow the caliper to float because the short stub axles the stick out from each side of the center bearing are not square to the frame mount and this will jam the pistons in the calipers.
Pad wear is not the issue that makes this necessary.
As for your taking the differential apart there is so much grease inside nothing will go flying out. You should find like I did that the snap ring on the ends of the shaft are braised on.
About the swing mount chain adjuster it make it easier on the chain wear. I talked with Robert Grace and he gave me a drawing on how to make this little kit up.
Steve

 

[wjustice]

Thats my plan now. I was going to leave what was ok alone and concentrate on the truely bad elements. Finding the axle bearings poor, the concentric locks off and the diff shifted to one side changed my plans. I removed the axle and plan on the brake conversion. I plan on MCP parts so that future parts are not a problem. I talked to MCP today and their m/c should handle 2 calipers. They also recommended their 1375S caliper. The regular 1375 has a spring to help kick the piston back to eliminate drag for the kart racers. The S version doesn't have it and may have some drag but will maintain the pads closer to the disc which is better for the dual setup. They also told me that their calipers are dual piston and do not have to be float mounted. However the alignment is still an issue as you stated.
I cannot use the swing mount tensioner until I change the brakes. The jackshaft brake will put too much load on that side, leaving the power side loose and possibly throwing a chain resulting in no brakes at all.
Is this the drawing?
http://www.alsportatv.net/AlsportWeb/Documents/AdjustableIdlerKit.PDF

 

[steven Durham]

Sounds like a great plan of action. and that drawing is the right one for the idler sprocket conversion. Thanks for the information on the caliper choice they recomended.
Steve