O.k. Other than using the cheap 90 amp HF welder I am not too familiar with welding. I have access to people who can weld some stuff for me. I know some do use gas some don't some use wire fed and some use welding rods. What are they arc welding? Brazing? Both? I am trying to find the simplest,cheapest way to maybe add jackshaft tabs or brake tabs or motor plates ect to a frame... Im not worried about how pretty the weld is ( I can grind). But I want to know it is going to stick (penetrate). So please define each type of welding and what would work or wouldnt and why. And best suggestions on what to use,where to get it and any useful tips.:grind:
mig is a wire feed using either flux core and no gas or solid core and gas. this is what i use. think, it's a HF, 220vac.
neighbor has a TIG, charges by the 6 pack. stands for tungsten inert gas. lots of practice to master. his welds look beautiful to me but he says he is still learning.
neighbor has a TIG, charges by the 6 pack. stands for tungsten inert gas. lots of practice to master. his welds look beautiful to me but he says he is still learning.
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TIG is the best, but requires lots of practice, the welding is slow, and expensive equipment.
MIG is the best for the hobbyist. Mig with gas is so much cleaner, but flux core wire can give good welds with practice. The HF welder is fine for most stuff you would do on a minibike.
Gas welding is an art, much like TIG. I have found it hard to get the metal to flow with gas welding and not fall out.
Myself, I have a Lincoln PowerMIG 180C. 220v welder with a nice big gas bottle. Before that I had a Miller 140 that ran on 120v. I built several rollcages for racecars with that Miller that passed NASCAR inspections.
Someday I want a TIG machine, but it can wait.
MIG is the best for the hobbyist. Mig with gas is so much cleaner, but flux core wire can give good welds with practice. The HF welder is fine for most stuff you would do on a minibike.
Gas welding is an art, much like TIG. I have found it hard to get the metal to flow with gas welding and not fall out.
Myself, I have a Lincoln PowerMIG 180C. 220v welder with a nice big gas bottle. Before that I had a Miller 140 that ran on 120v. I built several rollcages for racecars with that Miller that passed NASCAR inspections.
Someday I want a TIG machine, but it can wait.
Lincoln Electric AC225 Stick Welder how about this? Would this do everything I mentioned?
Campbell Hausfeld 115 Volt 70-Amp Stick Welder-WS0990 at The Home Depot how about this? Seems like it would do the job and for the price who cares? Wouldn't need anything special. Could plug it into the regular 110v outlet
Opinions vary and I am not a professional welder, just someone that welds often. This is just my opinions based on welding minibike-sized mild steel, which is what you are asking about.
Arc welding (stick welding) is great for mild steel such as a minibike frame. It takes some practice to get good at it, mainly because the rod is long when you start a weld, then burns shorter and shorter as you lay the bead. Its a messy process, leaving behind slag and it may litter the area around the weld with bits of metal. Arc welding can easily penetrate all the way through to the other side of a metal joint. It can penetrate so good you blow a hole in the metal. It can also be used on less-than-perfectly clean metal, so its great for repairs and mods. 6011 rods will weld almost anything mild steel, even somewhat rusted metal, and in any position. 7018 rods make great filler on top of a 6011 weld, and can lay down a real pretty bead.
The flux in arc welding is on the outside of the rod. Flux is what cleans the weld metal, and shields the weld from oxygen. Burnt flux forms the ugly slag that must be removed after welding. Spatter is worst with arc welding, but cleans right off with a grinder and wire brush. In my shop arc welding is King, I can squeeze a rod between narrow areas, and can crank up the Amps for any amount of penetration. The main machine adjustment is Amps; your hands and eyes adjust speed, depth, angle, and width. For what you want to weld, and for the cost, pick up a used Miller or Lincoln 225 AC and DC arc welder. Its just my opinion, and my #1 choice for your budget and possible skill set.
MIG welding (wire feeder) requires a bit less skill once the machine is set up. Its cleaner than arc welding. Its perfect for production since the welding torch remains the same distance from the work, and virtually limitless wire can be fed into the weld. Pull the trigger and weld. Low cost MIG: flux-core MIG welders use hollow wire with flux inside. HF sells these a lot, but I dislike them. A "normal" MIG welding machine uses gas from a bottle into the torch to shield the weld. Spatter is less than arc welding. For thin metal work, like automotive sheet metal and exhaust tubing, MIG is hard to beat. Its great on minibike tubing and lays in plenty of filler metal in a hurry. Machine adjustments include welding power, wire feed speed, and gas flow.
Small gasless MIG welders, especially the 110 Volt units, lack the power to penetrate thicker metal. For minibike work, some folks say they are OK and I have noticed OldMiniBikes posts to that effect. A 220 Volt gas bottle MIG will totally handle any weld on a minibike, including repairs and mods to less-than-perfectly new metal. This fails your "simplest, cheapest way" test because a decent MIG welder and a bottle of gas costs more than a few arc rods and a buzzbox. Because the torch is big on the end, there are many places it won't fit, that an arc rod slides between.
Brazing is easy to do, because its more like soldering. An oxygen/acetylene welding torch needs no electricity. Heat the metal, get it glowing cherry red, flow in some brazing rod, and smooth it around. It is LOTS more forgiving than any kind of electric welding. The downside here is maybe strength, though I braze stuff all the time and its stronger than the parent metal. Bonus, you can use the same gases with a cutting torch, and slice metal any way you want. Bonus, you can use a torch to heat large areas of metal for bending. Brazing would be my #2 choice for adding tabs to a minibike frame. Gas costs a lot. A Henrob or Cobra torch and gases are amazing for minibike-sized stuff, but the price is up there with a MIG or arc welder.
Gas welding is a bit different, and requires a lot more skill than brazing. The torch is adjusted hotter, and into a smaller area, and a welding rod is dipped and moved along. A proper weld bead is left behind. You need real clean metal to do gas welding, and a ton of practice. Aluminum can be welded this way, I was taught by an old aircraft builder.
TIG is kind of like gas welding with an electric torch. It uses shielding gas and is a difficult technique to master. Farm it out. Want a beautiful weld, a "show weld" that you will be proud to exhibit, go TIG. Originally known as Heliarc.
Skill: Jody at weldingtipsandtricks.com is the man, he is all over YouTube. His welding videos are succinct and humorous, aimed at the average person who is a non-welder.
Cheap and simple: an AC and DC "buzzbox" welder like a Miller Thunderbolt, which is infinitely adjustable. Runs on 220 Volts and will weld anything on a minibike, has penetration, rods are cheap, welds are strong, and a little practice goes a long way. These things almost never break, so a used one is fine.
Simple, maybe cheap if you look, is a welding torch and brazing rods.
Jon
Arc welding (stick welding) is great for mild steel such as a minibike frame. It takes some practice to get good at it, mainly because the rod is long when you start a weld, then burns shorter and shorter as you lay the bead. Its a messy process, leaving behind slag and it may litter the area around the weld with bits of metal. Arc welding can easily penetrate all the way through to the other side of a metal joint. It can penetrate so good you blow a hole in the metal. It can also be used on less-than-perfectly clean metal, so its great for repairs and mods. 6011 rods will weld almost anything mild steel, even somewhat rusted metal, and in any position. 7018 rods make great filler on top of a 6011 weld, and can lay down a real pretty bead.
The flux in arc welding is on the outside of the rod. Flux is what cleans the weld metal, and shields the weld from oxygen. Burnt flux forms the ugly slag that must be removed after welding. Spatter is worst with arc welding, but cleans right off with a grinder and wire brush. In my shop arc welding is King, I can squeeze a rod between narrow areas, and can crank up the Amps for any amount of penetration. The main machine adjustment is Amps; your hands and eyes adjust speed, depth, angle, and width. For what you want to weld, and for the cost, pick up a used Miller or Lincoln 225 AC and DC arc welder. Its just my opinion, and my #1 choice for your budget and possible skill set.
MIG welding (wire feeder) requires a bit less skill once the machine is set up. Its cleaner than arc welding. Its perfect for production since the welding torch remains the same distance from the work, and virtually limitless wire can be fed into the weld. Pull the trigger and weld. Low cost MIG: flux-core MIG welders use hollow wire with flux inside. HF sells these a lot, but I dislike them. A "normal" MIG welding machine uses gas from a bottle into the torch to shield the weld. Spatter is less than arc welding. For thin metal work, like automotive sheet metal and exhaust tubing, MIG is hard to beat. Its great on minibike tubing and lays in plenty of filler metal in a hurry. Machine adjustments include welding power, wire feed speed, and gas flow.
Small gasless MIG welders, especially the 110 Volt units, lack the power to penetrate thicker metal. For minibike work, some folks say they are OK and I have noticed OldMiniBikes posts to that effect. A 220 Volt gas bottle MIG will totally handle any weld on a minibike, including repairs and mods to less-than-perfectly new metal. This fails your "simplest, cheapest way" test because a decent MIG welder and a bottle of gas costs more than a few arc rods and a buzzbox. Because the torch is big on the end, there are many places it won't fit, that an arc rod slides between.
Brazing is easy to do, because its more like soldering. An oxygen/acetylene welding torch needs no electricity. Heat the metal, get it glowing cherry red, flow in some brazing rod, and smooth it around. It is LOTS more forgiving than any kind of electric welding. The downside here is maybe strength, though I braze stuff all the time and its stronger than the parent metal. Bonus, you can use the same gases with a cutting torch, and slice metal any way you want. Bonus, you can use a torch to heat large areas of metal for bending. Brazing would be my #2 choice for adding tabs to a minibike frame. Gas costs a lot. A Henrob or Cobra torch and gases are amazing for minibike-sized stuff, but the price is up there with a MIG or arc welder.
Gas welding is a bit different, and requires a lot more skill than brazing. The torch is adjusted hotter, and into a smaller area, and a welding rod is dipped and moved along. A proper weld bead is left behind. You need real clean metal to do gas welding, and a ton of practice. Aluminum can be welded this way, I was taught by an old aircraft builder.
TIG is kind of like gas welding with an electric torch. It uses shielding gas and is a difficult technique to master. Farm it out. Want a beautiful weld, a "show weld" that you will be proud to exhibit, go TIG. Originally known as Heliarc.
Skill: Jody at weldingtipsandtricks.com is the man, he is all over YouTube. His welding videos are succinct and humorous, aimed at the average person who is a non-welder.
Cheap and simple: an AC and DC "buzzbox" welder like a Miller Thunderbolt, which is infinitely adjustable. Runs on 220 Volts and will weld anything on a minibike, has penetration, rods are cheap, welds are strong, and a little practice goes a long way. These things almost never break, so a used one is fine.
Simple, maybe cheap if you look, is a welding torch and brazing rods.
Jon
Inverter Arc Welder - 80 Amp anyone try one of these?
I am leaning towards the stick welders that are 110v and the brazing. I like the idea of having torches around in case I need to heat things up to get things apart as well as weld them together. I will probably cheap out on the stick machine at first to see if I like it but I would go a little more on the torches knowing I would keep them longer and take care of them like all good tools. :thumbsup:
I left out arc as I am not a fan of it since moving to MIG.
I will say though that if I had 1/4" plate to be welded, stick would be a good choice. The times I have tried to use arc with thinner usually ends in a mess. Burn through, spatter, or sticking the electrode.
As far as brazing, copper pipe sure, steel not so much... :laugh:
I will say though that if I had 1/4" plate to be welded, stick would be a good choice. The times I have tried to use arc with thinner usually ends in a mess. Burn through, spatter, or sticking the electrode.
As far as brazing, copper pipe sure, steel not so much... :laugh:
Those little arc welders are hard to weld with, my opinion. The cheap circuitry inside makes the art of welding more difficult. 80 Amps is marginal. Penetration into sheet metal, 80 will do. Frame metal... that's not going in far. I have the larger 300 dollar HF inverter, does arc and TIG, and it goes over 100 Amps... even then, the arc is not anything nearly as stable as an American made buzzbox. Its wired for 220 Volts.
You are welcome to try this bigger, nicer HF inverter welder I have. Its like new. I can ship it to you, it needs a 220 Volt circuit but only draws 20 Amps. It can easily run on a dryer outlet with an adapter cord. I run it off my generator, for hurricane emergency use only.
Jon
You are welcome to try this bigger, nicer HF inverter welder I have. Its like new. I can ship it to you, it needs a 220 Volt circuit but only draws 20 Amps. It can easily run on a dryer outlet with an adapter cord. I run it off my generator, for hurricane emergency use only.
Jon
Gumpit, For welding relatively thin metals (like minibike frames) you can't beat TIG. However, if you are going to spring for an oxy-acetylene setup you may want to have somebody who knows how to do it give you a few lessons. It takes a bit to learn but with a bit of practice you can produce beautiful welds. That way for a start you will only need to buy one welding outfit for the time being. I spent years torch welding aircraft frames whose tubing was only .035" thick. That's the thickness of a hacksaw blade. And, Oxy-acetylene is a lot cheaper too. I just spent over three hundred bucks for a Miller welding helmet whereas a set of goggles for gas welding would have set me back about nine bucks. Those are just my thoughts on the subject. Ogy
That's a good welder, way better than the HF welders. That Lincoln costs 399 bucks or so at Home Depot. That long 6 gauge cord for 50 bucks is a steal if you need it. An AC and DC version would be even better!
This one is 75 bucks: http://nh.craigslist.org/tls/4336218548.html
So is this one, and its a Miller: http://nh.craigslist.org/tls/4348357397.html
This one is 75 bucks: http://nh.craigslist.org/tls/4336218548.html
So is this one, and its a Miller: http://nh.craigslist.org/tls/4348357397.html
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Pardue, Back in my younger days I belonged to the Experimental Aircraft Association. An organization for people who built homebuilt aircraft. At that time Oxy-acetylene was the only officially accepted method of welding for aircraft frames. The thinking was that with Oxy you heated up a larger area of the parent metal and when the weld was finished you could anneal the entire area to relieve the stresses. After countless bottles of gas, hundreds of pounds of melted tubing, and one beard in flames I finally got good enough to be approved by my local EAA chapter to weld aircraft frames. Like most of the old time gas welders I caved in a few years back and bought a TIG outfit. I haven't done any gas welding since then. Sort of sad really. It's a dying art. Ogy
Hey Randy , some great advice so far
But I would NOT even consider an arc (stick welder) that did not run off 220 volts they just do not have the power to start and maintain a decent arc
If you are limited to a 110 volt circuit then go with a wire feed setup
The cheap hf90amp machines are NOT a mig welder and cant be convertable to mig
They are flux core wire only but do work well for a cheap 110 volt machine and work way better than any small 110 volt stick welder that I have used
I do have a larger 220 volt lincoln arc welder that I use for heavy stuff like trailer frames anything 1/4 or thicker
But for general shop use and my custom frames I use the little flux core machine
That being said , I have been a back yard welder for 40 years , and have developed a lot of skill based on useing poor quaility machines , even a few homemade contraptions like a carbon arc torch for cutting , heating and brazing
So what ever you end up buying you will be disapointed and ashamed of your welds lol :laugh:
But with lots of playing and practice you can fabricate/repair anything :thumbsup:
But I would NOT even consider an arc (stick welder) that did not run off 220 volts they just do not have the power to start and maintain a decent arc
If you are limited to a 110 volt circuit then go with a wire feed setup
The cheap hf90amp machines are NOT a mig welder and cant be convertable to mig
They are flux core wire only but do work well for a cheap 110 volt machine and work way better than any small 110 volt stick welder that I have used
I do have a larger 220 volt lincoln arc welder that I use for heavy stuff like trailer frames anything 1/4 or thicker
But for general shop use and my custom frames I use the little flux core machine
That being said , I have been a back yard welder for 40 years , and have developed a lot of skill based on useing poor quaility machines , even a few homemade contraptions like a carbon arc torch for cutting , heating and brazing
So what ever you end up buying you will be disapointed and ashamed of your welds lol :laugh:
But with lots of playing and practice you can fabricate/repair anything :thumbsup:
Sent PM to O
One beard in flames? That s a thread-starter. First aircraft I flew in sported an EAA sticker on the empennage. First trip to Oshkosh led me to realize ANYTHING will fly with enough horsepower. Fellow that showed me oxy-acetylene welding in 1976 had recently gotten a TIG setup, and I suspect his skill went where yours did - into the pedal. Annealing was the original reason I bought a torch set, not to weld with. Wow at getting gas welding certified by the EAA, you must have heated miles of metal!
Jon
Jon
Every time I weld with my MIG, I look at the crappy welds and remember you telling me about getting a gas set up. Just yesterday, I found a stand I'd made was compromised because I ground too much off trying to fair welds. Hours wasted. Could have caused me some serious problems had that stand failed.