196cc clone vs 212cc Predator
- Thread starter MJL
- Start date
IMO, no. It's the things you can do to the different setups that make the difference. A clone can handle high lift with little problem. The HEMI is a whole 'nuther ballgame if you want 350 lift. But on the other hand, the HEMI is a hemi and the clone is not. The Hemi needs it's crank ground a bit to fit large duration cams. There are many cheap flattop piston solutions for clones.
It also depends on what's available to you in your area. If there's a Hobo Fart in the area, you might pick up a $99.95 Pred and so on...
It also depends on what's available to you in your area. If there's a Hobo Fart in the area, you might pick up a $99.95 Pred and so on...
I see a lot of guys ditching the stock 196cc engines on their Coleman bikes for the Predator engines. I think the Hemi is a better engine...bigger valves and more displacement, but if I already had a 196cc engine with a 3/4" crank, I would not hesistate to build it! The parts are cheaper and they can make good power. If I was starting from scratch, I'd build a Hemi!
If there's no replacement for displacement, then why do 4 bangers keep up with and sometimes beat v8s??
If the extra 16cc was good for anything, it would put out more power.... but the 196 and the 212 are both rated at 6.5hp.
Altho, on the "HEMI" 212, it does make like 1.5 ft/lbs more than the non-Hemi....
If I was forced to assume, I would think that the 212 is capable of more physical airflow, especially at higher RPMs.
Has anybody ever compared the 196 and 212, either both all stock or modded with the same parts?
If the extra 16cc was good for anything, it would put out more power.... but the 196 and the 212 are both rated at 6.5hp.
Altho, on the "HEMI" 212, it does make like 1.5 ft/lbs more than the non-Hemi....
If I was forced to assume, I would think that the 212 is capable of more physical airflow, especially at higher RPMs.
Has anybody ever compared the 196 and 212, either both all stock or modded with the same parts?
I have had a lot of imports and V8s. Imports keep up due to either turbos or being light weight. My last fast 4 banger was a 95 neon. It weighed about 2,300 LBs. My last camaro weighed about 3,300 LBS. You gut a hatch and do an H2B swap you have a 10-1 power to weight ratio. Its going to be like having an LS1 camaro.
A lot of the coleman people put the predators due so they can have the 3/4 shaft. I think a lot of them are afraid to open the motor to put a crank in it.
If you need a new motor the predator is a good option but like with the coleman bikes if the motor is new its cheaper to keep the motor and mod it. If your looking at dumping a bunch of money in the motor I am sure the predator would have an advantage with the larger displacement and better head but if were talking about putting $300-$400 in to your clone or buying a predator and putting $200-$300 in the predator the clone is a better deal. It can be lightly modded for cheaper. Better bang for the buck if you have it. I like the clone cuz the parts are cheaper. I can mix and match things more with it too. The predator I have to get a $100 flywheel and $80 rod to disable the governor but the clone the rod is $60 and I can use a $40 aluminum flywheel from the GX160. Ratio rockers are the same story as far as cost goes. I don't have to worry about things like spring to retainer or piston to valve clearance as much with a clone as a predator dose. I would love to see a drag race though with 2 maybe colemans or exactly the same mini bikes as well as hill climb. Both motors with the billet flywheel, rod, springs and governor removed and again with intake, exhaust and jets.
Some one one here has to have 2 stock minis/colemans or something that could be used as testing mules that is looking at upgrading there motor to a predator or has upgraded and has the stock 196 laying around. Some one point them out!
A lot of the coleman people put the predators due so they can have the 3/4 shaft. I think a lot of them are afraid to open the motor to put a crank in it.
If you need a new motor the predator is a good option but like with the coleman bikes if the motor is new its cheaper to keep the motor and mod it. If your looking at dumping a bunch of money in the motor I am sure the predator would have an advantage with the larger displacement and better head but if were talking about putting $300-$400 in to your clone or buying a predator and putting $200-$300 in the predator the clone is a better deal. It can be lightly modded for cheaper. Better bang for the buck if you have it. I like the clone cuz the parts are cheaper. I can mix and match things more with it too. The predator I have to get a $100 flywheel and $80 rod to disable the governor but the clone the rod is $60 and I can use a $40 aluminum flywheel from the GX160. Ratio rockers are the same story as far as cost goes. I don't have to worry about things like spring to retainer or piston to valve clearance as much with a clone as a predator dose. I would love to see a drag race though with 2 maybe colemans or exactly the same mini bikes as well as hill climb. Both motors with the billet flywheel, rod, springs and governor removed and again with intake, exhaust and jets.
Some one one here has to have 2 stock minis/colemans or something that could be used as testing mules that is looking at upgrading there motor to a predator or has upgraded and has the stock 196 laying around. Some one point them out!
I've had alot of imports and v8s as well. I've been in a gutted EG hatch with a modded B18C1 (GSR trans too) and it DID NOT feel like a an LS Camaro lol! I used to have an old bone stock Mustang 5.0 (225 hp new) and I got beat by a 97-up Prelude with a stock H22 (around 220 hp). They both weighted about the same at the time... so its not always the displacement.
Ok, so if you want to go faster on a minibike... lay off the junk food and go on a diet for weight reduction or change your gearing lol. I highly doubt 16cc more displacement is worth anything. It might be worth something if you can get it revving fast enough tho...
I would like to see both engines stock and both engines with a stage 3 and ported head... thats the only way you could really tell. You would have to put it on a dyno too, to get exact #s.
My 196 is still bone stock, I want to do some datalogging with it before I start modding it so I can record the findings from each upgrade 1 at a time...
I been trying like hell to FIND another CT200U for less than $400 (and cant). If I can find a frame only, I'd go to HF and grab a 212 just to do some testing with.
Does anyone have a video of doing a stage 1,2,or3 upgrade on a Clone? If I have to pull the head to swap stuff, I might as well port/polish the runners and chamber while its off and getting stiffer springs...
On a side note - Anyone ever heard of a CT200U-A?? Whats the "A" mean? I didnt see anything that looked different, but its printed on the seat...
Ok, so if you want to go faster on a minibike... lay off the junk food and go on a diet for weight reduction or change your gearing lol. I highly doubt 16cc more displacement is worth anything. It might be worth something if you can get it revving fast enough tho...
I would like to see both engines stock and both engines with a stage 3 and ported head... thats the only way you could really tell. You would have to put it on a dyno too, to get exact #s.
My 196 is still bone stock, I want to do some datalogging with it before I start modding it so I can record the findings from each upgrade 1 at a time...
I been trying like hell to FIND another CT200U for less than $400 (and cant). If I can find a frame only, I'd go to HF and grab a 212 just to do some testing with.
Does anyone have a video of doing a stage 1,2,or3 upgrade on a Clone? If I have to pull the head to swap stuff, I might as well port/polish the runners and chamber while its off and getting stiffer springs...
On a side note - Anyone ever heard of a CT200U-A?? Whats the "A" mean? I didnt see anything that looked different, but its printed on the seat...
The out of the box 212 has more torque than an out of the box 196. Torque is what gets you moving.
If you did identical performance upgrades, you would think the 212 would still have the advantage?
As far as the Coleman goes. There is no evidence anywhere that I have seen that the stock 196 Hisun engine sucks. If anything, they were ruined by running at too high an rpm in stock form. I would build it before I would go out and buy a Predator.
If you did identical performance upgrades, you would think the 212 would still have the advantage?
As far as the Coleman goes. There is no evidence anywhere that I have seen that the stock 196 Hisun engine sucks. If anything, they were ruined by running at too high an rpm in stock form. I would build it before I would go out and buy a Predator.
I built up the 196cc Hisun. Never had a predator so I can't directly compare but I am turning 8000+ rpms with a BM Jr cam and other goodies. The engine has always run well.
If anyone is looking for a mild/moderate build with the Hisun without swapping carbs, you can get to around 6500 rpm with an intake, header, bullet muffler, .38 jet, 140 etube and arc flywheel, rod and 18lb springs.
Feel free to PM me if you have any questions about either build for the coleman.
If anyone is looking for a mild/moderate build with the Hisun without swapping carbs, you can get to around 6500 rpm with an intake, header, bullet muffler, .38 jet, 140 etube and arc flywheel, rod and 18lb springs.
Feel free to PM me if you have any questions about either build for the coleman.
An H2B is an H swap with a B series transmission. Ya I have a B18C1 in my DC2. Its not a fast car. An H motor is a whole other animal though.
Its too bad I only have one mini. I have all the parts to make a 212 clone now. Not a predator but a normal clone motor with 212cc. I need one of my friends to get a coleman so we can test side by side.
Its too bad I only have one mini. I have all the parts to make a 212 clone now. Not a predator but a normal clone motor with 212cc. I need one of my friends to get a coleman so we can test side by side.
For what I spent on my 4 banger to make 500 WHP and 475 pounds of torque I could have built a pair of small blocks. But they don't allow a small block in an EVO in my class. LOL!
As for Hemi over 196, who the heck would write 196 on the tank, when you can write HEMI! :thumbsup:
My 200U sports a almost finished 212 non Hemi, P/O was a bit of a dunce, first ran the stock engine without oil. Then went to H/F and paid way too much for the non Hemi, when he could have gotten the Hemi for less... $129.99 for the non vs $99.00 for the real deal? Makes sense to me. NOT! Course this was the same guy who managed to screw in metric bolts into standard threads to attach the jackshaft plate.
ut:
As for Hemi over 196, who the heck would write 196 on the tank, when you can write HEMI! :thumbsup:
My 200U sports a almost finished 212 non Hemi, P/O was a bit of a dunce, first ran the stock engine without oil. Then went to H/F and paid way too much for the non Hemi, when he could have gotten the Hemi for less... $129.99 for the non vs $99.00 for the real deal? Makes sense to me. NOT! Course this was the same guy who managed to screw in metric bolts into standard threads to attach the jackshaft plate.
ut:Y'all but if a person already has a new 196 on there bike it's not cost effective to swap to a predator and mod it. Predator is more expensive to mod on top of the purchase of the motor. Money would be better spent on cam and carb. If a person was racing than ya build the best motor you can and start with the largest motor and best flowing head you can get. Not sure why the Coleman guys pull new motors just to swap a predator with bolt on.
I would think it's the folks who want a TAV instead of the jackshaft. To them it's easier(?) to buy the Predator with the 3/4" crank and bolt on the TAV, vs swapping cranks or going with an adapter to make it work.
Some of us are parts changers, some of us are builders, it's whatever works for someone.
Some of us are parts changers, some of us are builders, it's whatever works for someone.
Ya I do understand if a person is new to motors or dose not have tools like torque wrenches and that the predator is easy to find and bolt in. I would still recommend that people still consider another 196 though as an option like a champion or a Lifan. Only a few parts are interchangeable between the 196 and 212 motors. That way at least if something goes wrong and they need something they have a spare motor that every thing swaps between. Just tired of seeing the first mod on a Coleman being a stock 212 with a torque converter. The stock motor is great. I kinda fall in between the builder and parts changer crowd. I don't always have the proper tools to do the things I am doing the right way. A feeler gauge is not the best tool for checking piston to wall clearance :doah: