Camshafts? Anyone real sharp on Camshafts?

#1
Now here's a topic that could keep you learning for the rest of your life.

What do we, as a group. Know about the various camshafts on the market, that are best suited to the engines & type of usage that we commonly enjoy?

We have our:
5HP B&S Flathead
5HP Tecumseh Flathead
6.5 Honda/Clone engines
Both B&S and Tec have a few OHV engines
Then of course there are the Raptor, Animal, World Formula & Blockzilla engines, just to name a few.

A cursory glance at some of the commercially available camshafts looks like they are mostly ground for a certain type of racing Kart class or Jr. Dragster type engines. Not exactly the same operating parameters that most of our minibike engines would operate at.

I'm thinking about more of a 'street car' type grind that builds usable power in the 1500 to 5500 or so RPM range.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
 

125ccCrazy

Well-Known Member
#2
I'm curious about the 6.5 clone cams, I'm building my engine and can't get any real answers on what cam will work the best with what I want to do..... I'm looking at the Dyno 275 and also the 308 cam and would like to know what head mods (valve sizes) and valve trane I will need to make either cam work to it's full potential..
 
#3
Now here's a topic that could keep you learning for the rest of your life.

What do we, as a group. Know about the various camshafts on the market, that are best suited to the engines & type of usage that we commonly enjoy?

We have our:
5HP B&S Flathead
5HP Tecumseh Flathead
6.5 Honda/Clone engines
Both B&S and Tec have a few OHV engines
Then of course there are the Raptor, Animal, World Formula & Blockzilla engines, just to name a few.

A cursory glance at some of the commercially available camshafts looks like they are mostly ground for a certain type of racing Kart class or Jr. Dragster type engines. Not exactly the same operating parameters that most of our minibike engines would operate at.

I'm thinking about more of a 'street car' type grind that builds usable power in the 1500 to 5500 or so RPM range.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
For the RPM range your specifying, I would stay with a stock cam in a flat head. I find more improvements through blue printing and such, vs a cam change. I'm no expert, but with a timing advance, a little carb work and some other trick my flat heads run pretty good with a stock cam. Now, I don't spin them to the moon either. I'd like to build a clone motor that's pretty wild one of these days, but as for what cam to run, I'll be askin the experts as well.
 

Motra

Active Member
#4
Good question! I'm building a 6.5 clone and have wondered about the cam too. I think a cam geared more towards kart racing would be more beneficial than one designed for drag racing type power. Kart racers need usable power throughout the RPM range where the drag racers are probably more concerned about getting max power, which usually occurs within a narrow range of the powerband.
 
#5
...I think a cam geared more towards kart racing would be more beneficial than one designed for drag racing type power....
That was my original thoughts. After glancing at a few of the cam specs listed in the CompCams catalog. It appears that many of those cams are designed to produce power in the 4k to 8k RPM range. I have not read in depth on this yet though.

I have not raced Briggs powered Karts or Jr. Dragsters. It seems to me though, that the Kart racers concentrate on trying to get around the track without having to lift or brake. The Jr. Dragsters on the other hand may need a broader power-band to accelerate from a stand still & continue to build power without the assistance of shifting to a higher gear.

Unfortunately these two arena's are most likely where the majority of any R&D has been performed.

Maybe 'Riding Lawnmower Racers' would be a more suitable source of information.

Here are a few links that I've been working my way through.

4 Cycle Karting Forums - FAQ: Flathead Blueprinting
4 Cycle Karting Forums - FAQ

DynoCams.com Official Website
COMP GoParts™ - Advanced Valve Train Technology for Kart & Jr. Dragster Racing
 
#6
i have built alot of v8 engines and have played around with various range of cams from total strip to mild have never yet messed with the valvetrain on the small engine yet but i would imagine for normal riding a mild cam would be perfect keeping alot of low end power and spicing up the top end a little where a big cam you would lose alot of throttle responce because its made to run wide open at high rpm and sacrificing alot of low end torque im sure its just like rods the proper cam for the application hope that helps
 

Motra

Active Member
#7
I have not raced Briggs powered Karts or Jr. Dragsters. It seems to me though, that the Kart racers concentrate on trying to get around the track without having to lift or brake. The Jr. Dragsters on the other hand may need a broader power-band to accelerate from a stand still & continue to build power without the assistance of shifting to a higher gear.
This sounds logical to me. I was just assuming but you've done some research on the subject.
I want to gain some power and some RPM but I don't want to loose the low end power. I'm not looking for insane power, just a little more welly. I want ridability and good throttle response.
I spoke with minidragbike and he said that more power means more power throughout. All the mods, done correctly, will make your engine more powerful throughout the powerband. You wont loose low end power, you'll just gain a lot more in the higher RPM range.
 
#8
Well, my expirience is limited.

I did want to say that:

If I were to pay $60 & up for a new camshaft, I wouldn't want a camshaft with a factory stock lift.

It makes me feel like I would be spending Money on something I can't really see or measure. :confused:
 

125ccCrazy

Well-Known Member
#9
Well, my expirience is limited.

I did want to say that:

If I were to pay $60 & up for a new camshaft, I wouldn't want a camshaft with a factory stock lift.

It makes me feel like I would be spending Money on something I can't really see or measure. :confused:
Are you referring to a stock replacement cam or one that just has the bottom of the lobe ground off reducing the centerline like the Dyno 275 cam??
 
#10
You can completely change an engines powerband without adding more lift to a cam. There is so much more to it than just additional lift. Duration, overlap, centerline, etc.

I guess I was hoping that there was someone on this board that had experience in cam design specific to the types of engines we commonly use.
 
#11
The few cams that I have ground for my 3 and 3.5 tecumsehs are at the limits of lift and duration. This was a few years ago but I recall stock lift was around .180" and mine were set up to be just shy of .300", and with as much duration as I though the intake could use. I suspected that the restrictive L-head intake ports and valves wouldn't allow maximum cylinder pressure at high RPM and that longer a duration wouldn't hurt performance. Both motors idle fairly well. There was mild improvement in the midrange performance but the upper RPM really starts to pull when the stocker just starts to drop off. David
 
#12
You can completely change an engines powerband without adding more lift to a cam. There is so much more to it than just additional lift. Duration, overlap, centerline, etc.

I guess I was hoping that there was someone on this board that had experience in cam design specific to the types of engines we commonly use.
Which engines are you talking about?

There is quite a variety of them, and they don't use the cams.
 
#13
Personally I know nothing about this subject. However, on a go kart, accelerating out of a hair pin turn, torque seems to play a roll from the weight of the go kart and rider. A mini bike properly tuned and ported with larger valves, heaver springs, jetted correctly, how long are you going to hold the thing wide open? Are you at bonneville? Are you looking for sound or power? I think duration has more significance than lift. Gasoline, alcohol, mehtanol and nitro methane fuels also play a roll.

Remember Gentleman, it's revving between your legs, and the wheels are small and the frame is 7/8" tubing and semi ridgid>

Is it a competetion or a composition as John Lennon once said>??

Why not install a Honda 4 cylinder 750cc in a mini bike?

Is it for show? Or is it for go? Each member has so many wonderful projects to display.
How important is it really? I raced at Ascot Park in the beginner Moto Cross on Friday nights in 1984-1985. I ran mid pack and used 100 octane fuel and took the bike to Paul Thede, big freekin deal, now I am fifty, it has little meaning to me....In the morgue with all of us wearing toe tags layed out in rows of six, were now all equal again and camshafts are just one componant.

2 cents of memories..

The older I get the badder I was! :drinkup:

Don't kill yourselves trying to outdo each other, that takes all the fun out of the HOBBY..

No disrespect to full on racer's. What are your needs? Low end? Mid range? High reving? Or just a bike no one want's to ride? Think of it in horse terms. A saddle horse for pleasure? Or a bronc that will throw you on you ass and step on your neck repeatedly?

TT :doah:
 

Oldsalt

Well-Known Member
#14
Bottom line: Want more power [torque] throughout the ENTRE rpm range with your mini bike engine? Increase the compression ratio. That's been the cheapest and easiest way to increase torque since folks started milling the heads on flathead Fords and stovebolt Chevy sixes in the 30s and 40s. Don't need to do anything else includeing removal of the governor. Even on a flathead this is especially true if the stock rev limit is not to be exceeded, which is approx. 3,600/4,000 rpm on the engines we are talking about. IF the rev limit is going to be SUBSTANUALLY increased on a flathead [requiring, for instance, installation of a better crank, rod, cam, flywheel, piston, valve springs, carb, and advanced timing & etc.] then it could easily happen that the intake and exhaust valves would need to be unshrouded to compensate for the loss of clearance over the top of the valves due to lowering the head. Loss of breathing capacity won't be a factor that even comes close to canceling out the big gains that increasing the compression ratio will bring within the stock rev limit. The above does not apply to an OHV motor like a Briggs Intec. In that case there's no problem at all if you mill the head. Mine has 10.5 to 1. Really wakes up the motor!
 
#15
Which engines are you talking about?

There is quite a variety of them, and they don't use the cams.
What the hell are you talking about? Your post doesn't make a bit of sense.

Please everyone. This thread is supposed to be a serious thread on camshaft theory. What does or does not work in the engines that we typically run in our minibikes. Several of these more common engines were listed in the very first post. If you don't understand the topic or have the actual experience to add factual data to the post. At the very least, politely sit this one out & let someone who does know what they are talking about, attempt to teach the ones who are truly interested.

The camshaft is the brain of your engine. It, more than any other part, or sub-assembly, determines your engines operational characteristics, power-band, profile, or if you will... What would be the equivalent of the engines personality.

Many of you are discussing hanging free flowing exhaust pipes & Mikuni carbs off your engines to either build more power or at least improve throttle response. That will only get you so far before the door is slammed shut in your face in the form of a too short valve timing event. Then there are those of you who are yanking the governors because 3600RPM will never be enough. All these modifications need to work together & compliment each other. The camshaft is what makes that happen.

Now please, don't any of you, even begin to think that I must be real knowledgeable about camshaft design. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have read, listened & studied, barely enough to realize how little I really know. Those of you out there that have dabbled in camshaft design & have had a few :grind:. You are the ones I'd like to hear from. What your thoughts were? What you have tried? And most importantly. What were the results?

Thanks
~JM~
 
#16
Bottom line: Want more power [torque] throughout the ENTRE rpm range with your mini bike engine? Increase the compression ratio....
Indeed Old Wise & Salty One. Compression is another key component & really wakes up an engine!

What has been your experience with increasing the CR & the common pump gas octane ratings?

By any chance have you read or experimented with: SOMENDER-SINGH.com - Home type Grooves?
 

Oldsalt

Well-Known Member
#17
JM
Ah yes, the bottom line as you note is: Pump gas.
Union "76" gas, common before/after WWII had nothing to do with the American Revolution of 1776. It was the octane rateing that Union Oil was so proud of. In any case the compresson ratio on my 41 Harley was around 7 to 1 and that was higher than most auto engines. As I recall a Model T was about 4.5 to 1 because the really poor octane fuel available that far back.

Why is this mentioned? Because without reasonable fuel the low compression engines would be with us still. After about 1950 the situation changed and better fuel became available so it was then possible to mill the head on any auto engine with great results. I worked on and around a lot of Ford flatheads in the early fifties with a guy, Joe Reves, that raced them during the hard top days. The term that was then used to denote that the valves were unshrouded and the valve track opened up was that the block was "ported and releaved". My friends and I had a lot of heads milled, on flathead Fords, Chevy 6s, and Plymouth/Dodge 6s, and even a Pontiac straight 8 for street use. In every case the engines ran stronger from off idle to as fast as we dare rev them. This was without any other modifications other than maybe a "Two Place" manifold with a pair of Stromberg 97s.

Joe showed me how he did his porting and releaveing to Ford motors that had the static compression ratio substanually raised. However, over the years it has come to my attention that not too many people back then knew what they were doing. I believe that technology as it relates to flathead Fords has increased in the hands of a few crazy land speed racers. I recall that the fastest flathead Ford now runs 308mph in the 5 mile.

If the rev limit is NOT going to be raised there a only small reason to modify the carburation or exhaust tracks, and that includes the cam, on an engine that has been "Milled". If an overhead valve engine, again say an Intec, was subjected to a severe head milling there is no problem with restricting the breathing. Ya, the valve gear geometry will get a little bit wrong, unless the push rods are shortened, but that is not a show stopper. Some time back I discussed this flathead "milling/shrouding" issue with my engine builder. He agreed with the above but of course added that the next step in a performance engine would be to make it capable of consumeing more air every minute. That of course entails raising the rev limit and opening up the intake and exhaust tracks and providing valve timing events that agree with the greatly increased mixture and exhaust gas velocities. The latest engine built for my son and I has 16.1 to 1 ratio, red lines at >8,000rpm, has nearly 4.600 bore, and has 494 c.i. but it don't run on pump gas.

Here is my cut on the downside to milling the head on, say, a 5 HP Briggs. Heat. Every point the compression is raised will allow the engine to extract more power from the same amount of fuel. It also means that there will be a greater amount of heat generated and that will require closer attention to cooling. Less problem on a water cooled engine. On an air cooled engine it can be more of a problem. However, the noble Briggs is fan cooled and if not operated at full rated load and rpm for an extended period no problem should arise. I have trouble believeing anyone will often subject themselves and their mini to extended full throttle applications that result in that condition. The 5 HP Briggs being a typical flathead design has all the faults of that design. Namely the exhaust valve is next to the cylinder and makes cooling that area of the cylinder problamatical. The OHV Intec has no such problem and would, all other things equal, be less likely to suffer.

It's cheap. Mill the damned head and see what happens. How much to mill that 5 HP Briggs? A year or so ago, on two occations, I asked that question on this site. Answer? Basicly that I was dumb to ask because all sorts of high tech things also had to be done so it was a moot question. I also got the idea that there were some top secret things that affected National Security that were above my level to be informed of. I was born at night but not last night. So I suppose the only way I'll find out what an "optimum" mill would be [for a stock engine operating at 3,600/4,000] will be for me to do it myself. I've put to bed the Intec OHV question. 10 to 1 is fine on 92 octane, more might be better. Have a used 5 horse that can be experimented with but gotta finish the Caper Cycle first.
 
#18
What the hell are you talking about? Your post doesn't make a bit of sense.

Please everyone. This thread is supposed to be a serious thread on camshaft theory. What does or does not work in the engines that we typically run in our minibikes. Several of these more common engines were listed in the very first post. If you don't understand the topic or have the actual experience to add factual data to the post. At the very least, politely sit this one out & let someone who does know what they are talking about, attempt to teach the ones who are truly interested.

The camshaft is the brain of your engine. It, more than any other part, or sub-assembly, determines your engines operational characteristics, power-band, profile, or if you will... What would be the equivalent of the engines personality.

Many of you are discussing hanging free flowing exhaust pipes & Mikuni carbs off your engines to either build more power or at least improve throttle response. That will only get you so far before the door is slammed shut in your face in the form of a too short valve timing event. Then there are those of you who are yanking the governors because 3600RPM will never be enough. All these modifications need to work together & compliment each other. The camshaft is what makes that happen.

Now please, don't any of you, even begin to think that I must be real knowledgeable about camshaft design. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have read, listened & studied, barely enough to realize how little I really know. Those of you out there that have dabbled in camshaft design & have had a few :grind:. You are the ones I'd like to hear from. What your thoughts were? What you have tried? And most importantly. What were the results?

Thanks
~JM~
I forgot a word.:doah:

I was saying that, you didn't specify what engines you wanted cam info on.

The OHVs and Flatheads make different types of power.

It's easier to pop a wheelie with an OHV engined Minibike because of low end torque.:scooter:
 
#19
I'm looking at 3/4 race cams and strong short track cams for my clone OHV. I'd rather have good torque from this thing than a stupid high redline. Good torque, a TAV2, and actually a stock rear gear would make for still a torquey pull with good top end.

Remember to match your intake, cam and header to what is underneath. I'm restricting my power and redline with a smaller cam, more or less. A short track cam with good lift, not excessive duration, and a 108-110 lobe sep(???) sounds about right for my application. But, stock compression engines might not like it. One size doesn't fit all, but aim for the torquey end of things for general hobbyist requirements.
 
Top