New HF engine compaired to Honda clone's

ProMod

ProMod

#1
#1
Thought I would post this thread after having some customer questions about the different brands of engines available for DB motor swaps.
First of all and not to repeat on other existing threads regarding the HF engine, But there is a issue with the new HF and greyhound engine having a taller gas tank. This puts the gas cap really close to the frame rail and makes fueling them up not as easy as the older design. This is more of an inconvenience than anything but could be worked around. But If you choose to install a different tank you just cannot use a Honda clone tank in place of the existing tank. The HF-Greyhound engine block is a different casting and does not have the rear tank mount tabs. The new style block also has a different side cover and you cannot use Honda or Honda clone gaskets which are readily available from the Kart engine builders.The valve cover is also different. Another thing I would like to share is the ol "ya get what ya pay for". The new HF engine seems to run good. It's the cheapest buy around. But for those who bought one with dreams of hot rod hop up's I would take a look at the pics I have attached. And I would not advise running a new style HF engine with the Governor removed or the engine modified. Paying $20 to $50 less for it may bite your fun in the butt.The pics are of the internal parts of a new HF engine I inspected today compared to a Honda clone engine I know is worthy of modifications.

HF Crude drilled crank balancing

Good Honda Clone crank!

Honda clone cam and HF cam
(note the thickness of the two and the crude grinding job done to remove the casting slag on the thinner HF cam on the right.)

HF side cover and Honda Clone Side cover
( look at the difference in the thickness of the webbing that supports the load on the side cover)

HF

Honda Clone

Side by side comparison. ( the HF side cover still has the gasket attached)

 
Strigoi

Strigoi

#2
#2
ProMod said:
And I would not advise running a new style HF engine with the Governor removed or the engine modified.
Click to expand...
they do fine. i've beat the shit out of my new style 6.5 for awhile and it's putting out around 12hp and revs a little over 6k rpm right now. my crank also doesn't look as bad as that one either.

saying you shouldn't mod them at all is just ridiculous IMO.

what brand clone are you using for comparison?
 
ProMod

ProMod

#3
#3
OK Rod, Not so good Rod

This is a Clone rod that is fairly thick at the crank journal area.

This is a HF rod that has less material in this area to the point where you can see the casting bulge where the top rod bolt threads in. (look close)

 
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Strigoi

Strigoi

#4
#4
what model clone are you comparing the HF engine to?

i don't think there's anyone on this board that knows what they're doing that's told someone to run the stock rod after removing the governor. i wouldn't run a stock Honda rod with the gov removed.
 
ProMod

ProMod

#6
#6
Strigoi said:
what model clone are you comparing the HF engine to?

i don't think there's anyone on this board that knows what they're doing that's told someone to run the stock rod after removing the governor. i wouldn't run a stock Honda rod with the gov removed.
Click to expand...

For those who have basic mechanical knowledge the pics speak for them self.
And as far as governors go..
Look at a ARC Box Stock engine Build Strigoi.
Do you see a ARC rod in the recipe? They run em up to 5k where the valves float with stock valve springs over and over.
These are 6.5 clone Kart engines that are actually beat on a race track and live because they are a good quality.
As far as your engine goes Strigoi, Show me a dyno sheet for your claimed 12hp and I'll believe your HF engine with a rod and crank as shown in these pics is living through whatever you call a beating. And I'll say good for you! But my personal recommendation to anyone who wants to take the pics seriosely is to chose a worthy base for your hotrod project. Or just be happy with it stock. I would much rather chose an actual Honda clone not a new style HF engine to modify because of what you see in the pics. The Honda clone crank,rod and cover pics shown are off a Baja 6.5 hensim built engine. Some of the yellow clone engines sold by Kart engine builders are also high quality that have parts directly interchangeable with Honda. The new HF or greyhound is being sold cheap for a reason and is not the same as the previous Honda clone's. fact! Not to put anyone down who already bought one. And the older versions could be different. They do have there place. There cheap!
 
Strigoi

Strigoi

#7
#7
i understand the difference and have posted pics showing the difference between a Honda and clone crank in the past. i don't have a dyno but my engine should be around 12hp according to the people i've talked to. the crank and case are about the only stock parts left on my 6.5.
 
minibikin'

minibikin'

Sho-nuff
#8
#8
Strigoi said:
what model clone are you comparing the HF engine to?

i don't think there's anyone on this board that knows what they're doing that's told someone to run the stock rod after removing the governor. i wouldn't run a stock Honda rod with the gov removed.
Click to expand...
x2 LOL.:smile:
 
olajoe808

olajoe808

Banned
#10
#10
well that new hf engine is the one i have over 150 miles on, high compression, run basically on cooking oil. if it's all out drag racing or non stop kart racing at rpms north of 8k every bit counts, but for a cruiser hot rod works great here.
 
minibikedude

minibikedude

Active Member
#12
#12
New style gas tank can be swapped out for a real Honda square tank or older clone one. You just have to fab up a bracket and drill some holes in it. I did it to mine. And these engine are a 100 bucks a real Honda engine is a least 350 for a new one. It is true, you get what you pay for. But there not bad for what you pay for them, It took me a while to try one, but they work good and can keep you with in your budget when building up a bike. There is a lot of aftermarket parts to hop them up safely and for the side cover gasket, It won't be long and the go-carter sites will have them available. Here's a new engine old stle tank on my bike.

 
ProMod

ProMod

#13
#13
NR racing has yellow Honda clone's for $149 with a Honda tank installed.
The engine is about 12" tall at the tank and fits nice in the frame. The parts and gaskets are Honda interchangeable. These are the clones they use for Mod Builds.
I was told that HF side cover and VC gaskets are currently on eternal backorder. So try to save them when you do a valve adjust or gov removal.
Sealant may work on HF VC OK, Not good for side cover.
If anyone else has a parts source please ad info.
 
Sooner79

Sooner79

Active Member
#14
#14
ProMod said:
NR racing has yellow Honda clone's for $149 with a Honda tank installed.
The engine is about 12" tall at the tank and fits nice in the frame. The parts and gaskets are Honda interchangeable. These are the clones they use for Mod Builds.
I was told that HF side cover and VC gaskets are currently on eternal backorder. So try to save them when you do a valve adjust or gov removal.
Sealant may work on HF VC OK, Not good for side cover.
If anyone else has a parts source please ad info.
Click to expand...
Also, no tax and shipping on th NR Racing yellow clone is only $14 via Fed Ex. I ordered one today and am returning the HF engine I had bought but not installed. NR Racing has an endless amount of performance upgrades for this engine, including headers and exhausts that will fit the DB. Check out their website: NR-Racing.com
 
Strigoi

Strigoi

#15
#15
the mini bike header from NR will only fit a DB if it has the engine plate installed. if it doesn't, it will hit the rear cross bar on the frame.

i think the black clone pipe will fit, but it's tight.
 
olajoe808

olajoe808

Banned
#16
#16
ProMod said:
.........when you do a valve adjust or gov removal.
Sealant may work on HF VC OK, Not good for side cover.
If anyone else has a parts source please ad info.
Click to expand...
Hey pro I was doing the same comparisons heads and cams and found just the opposite. My stock cam actually looks like your good cam? The stock hf head compared to non hf heads I have is beefier? According to your colleague pro builders the more hp they make the more sealant they use in place of the gasket specifically on the sidecover. Not against any of these clone engines but seems like hit and miss for either color. On the karting forums the guys argue this all the time but for half the price of a honda looks like it's tough to lose with either color.
 
vette66_00

vette66_00

Active Member
#17
#17
BTW this post should have gone in the Honda/Clone area of our forums.


Also we have a HF clone new style engine with a ton of miles (Last I checked it was 715.6 miles on the OD) on it, stock other than the rod. WORKS awesome no problems and it see's WOT for 2-3 min sprints. Still starts and runs fine. We have pulled the motor apart a couple times in inspect it. Small amount of wear in the cylinder and rings but nothing bad. Synthetic oil has been used since 2nd tank of gas. Don't know if it matters but that's the way its run.
 
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A

altered7151

Member
#18
#18
Does any body have an approximate date on when these new HF engines hit the shelves? It would be nice to know when they switched over to the new tooling on these motors, and if there was some way to identifying them without pulling them apart.
I would imagine that if you want do some some of the more basic mods on these motors they'd probably be fine, anything over the 12-13hp range might be pushing it though, that crank scares me. :hammer:
 
A

altered7151

Member
#20
#20
Also meant to ask, on that picture of the HF crank is it drilled all the way through the journal? Its a little hard to tell from the pic. While it would definitely hurt the crank strength on big hp motors, I would imagine it would also substantially reduce the weight of the crank. With some work on that crank to de-stress around their drilling, it might actually make a superior crank in box stock classes.
 
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