Understanding clones making them perform

#1
Some points to expand on and understand.

A car or bike engine is designed to produce on average 20% of its rated power at any given time for extended periods. You might use 30 of your engines rated 200 HP for example to cruise around run your AC and putter up and down the road. That 200 is there only for excelleration, towing that heavy load up a hill.

An engine like the GX is designed to deliver 80% of its rated power 100% of the time. Its tuned to opperate in a given RPM range and do this reliably.

What this means to us:

The majority of the parts inside are built more robustly. This means if we want to stretch that envelope and do things to it to increase its power throttle respons and excelleration we should be able to get more out of and still be reliable than say a Gy6 of equal power rating ( and significantly smaller displacement ).

Where are the weak points and why?

Flywheel:
Because it was not meant to spin up as fast as some would like

Valves and springs:
Not ment to go that fast.

Rod:
Not intended to turn that hard and not engineered for effect high RPM opperation.

Carburation and governer:
Intended to run in a narrow rpm range.

Ignition: set for easy starting and one opperating speed

BUT there is strength in the design. Parts are made to withstand that 80 % duty factor and they will hold up for short periods of time puting out more.
So how do we translate this into more power?
Better VE, more compression free flowing exhaust and of course this all means shifting the power curve above the originaly designed 3600 rpm. This plays into the weakness of the design these parts were not intended to spin at speeds above 3600 rpm for extended periods. They wil break if held there
and they will need to be replaced with stronger or lighter parts to work that way.

Following along you can see now how you make a clone turn 7000rpm and not explode. The question is how do you get there what parts must be changed and modified and what are you expecting. You need to carefuly plan what your steps and know what in advance you are trying to get.

The comment " want more " comes up in many threads. Well what is more?
If you don't understand where you want to go your not going to get there one mismatched part at a time and making changes without fully understanding their effects will only lead to troubles.
 
#6
Some points to expand on and understand.

A car or bike engine is designed to produce on average 20% of its rated power at any given time for extended periods. You might use 30 of your engines rated 200 HP for example to cruise around run your AC and putter up and down the road. That 200 is there only for excelleration, towing that heavy load up a hill.

An engine like the GX is designed to deliver 80% of its rated power 100% of the time. Its tuned to opperate in a given RPM range and do this reliably.

What this means to us:

The majority of the parts inside are built more robustly. This means if we want to stretch that envelope and do things to it to increase its power throttle respons and excelleration we should be able to get more out of and still be reliable than say a Gy6 of equal power rating ( and significantly smaller displacement ).

Where are the weak points and why?

Flywheel:
Because it was not meant to spin up as fast as some would like

Valves and springs:
Not ment to go that fast.

Rod:
Not intended to turn that hard and not engineered for effect high RPM opperation.

Carburation and governer:
Intended to run in a narrow rpm range.

Ignition: set for easy starting and one opperating speed

BUT there is strength in the design. Parts are made to withstand that 80 % duty factor and they will hold up for short periods of time puting out more.
So how do we translate this into more power?
Better VE, more compression free flowing exhaust and of course this all means shifting the power curve above the originaly designed 3600 rpm. This plays into the weakness of the design these parts were not intended to spin at speeds above 3600 rpm for extended periods. They wil break if held there
and they will need to be replaced with stronger or lighter parts to work that way.

Following along you can see now how you make a clone turn 7000rpm and not explode. The question is how do you get there what parts must be changed and modified and what are you expecting. You need to carefuly plan what your steps and know what in advance you are trying to get.

The comment " want more " comes up in many threads. Well what is more?
If you don't understand where you want to go your not going to get there one mismatched part at a time and making changes without fully understanding their effects will only lead to troubles.
I also agree. Great article. :thumbsup::thumbsup: :smile:
 
#7
what do you want an award.. not to be rude but maybe the dead horse is being kicked by you, we all want one thing. hemselves. People dont jump outta airplanes for the health benifits.

Great article though without a doubt
Good question what do I want.....
A million dollars lol.

I was trying to drive home the point too many people use a shotgun aproach to trying to make a mule ( clone ) into a grey hound. Its just not practical to do that.

Define your goals.
Do the homework.
Make the correct changes.
Make small correctable changes ( incase something does not work as intended ).
 
#9
Oh I get it :thumbsup:
But this site isn't the same as 4cycle. Totally different environment.
Ya you get it, you gave me lots of good advice.

I'm still wrestling with a lot of things namely trying to get my valve train angles perfect with those new rockers you turned me onto.
Confused by that whole timing thing too since I noticed something like that myself recently swapping between a pair of 14cc heads I have worked over differently from one another that my timing requirements change ( but I'm not blowing gaskets lol ).

And wait untill you see the Octopus of linkages and braces I have mocked up to support that angled Tilley carb and air filter to tuck in tight to the bike ( clone 3 for off road, can't have things sticking out like your drag bikes ).

And I think this guy is from Canada Charles, or do you say " arse " in LA instead of " Ass ".

1:00 am, 200 miles from home and I can't sleep, and there is an unfinnished clone in my room.....
Going to try and see if I can get to 11:1 with premium pump gas on this and still have all the manners but more torque.
 
#10
Indignant response.

Here you have an open source engine, a forum with a huge archive and people with a wealth of information on the subject. Use the opportunity to make intelligent posts and learn.
Pretty cocky for 9 posts he should take a step back and think! I know what I want from my clone: I want no governer, I will not get the billet stuff because I ride conservatively with a briggs intec with no governer I have. I will not get stiffer springs because I dont plan on seeing more than 5000 RPMs if that! I just dont want the governer keeping me from reaching higher when I want to they have some adjustment but it has limits! Simple and to the point, no frills cheap power and performance without much effort! As I said on another thread I have one that I found a happy medium with a governed unit and with some adjustment and thinking about how it worked I was able to tweak it and be happy with the performance! It goes 35+ maybe more with my son on it and 30-35 with me! He's a big kid! Anyway I get what you're saying and there are many people who keep asking thes questions and you have provided a pretty comrehensive explaination IMO! And if someone wants more than what I;m wanting they need to go about it in a well thiugh out manner or they will have spent unneccessary money and still are not happy!
 
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65ShelbyClone

Well-Known Member
#11
This was a good thread before fitrider came in being juvenile. At least the information is still good. Props to Oldschool for taking the time to explain all that for our less experienced members. :thumbsup: Now let's hope they are able to find it.

BTW, my IP address location is about 30mi away from where I really am....:biggrin:
 
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#12
Still learning myself....

I have one clone in the frame, a mule for testing parts.

A second clone in developement.

Third clone for mock up.

A 160 for parts and a Champion in waiting for something else possibly a 70mm piston.
Somethings I don't understand why one set of parts that should have a predictable effect. Near identical to the ones on the mule will sudenly throw everthing I learned to the wind. You test and tinker more and try to understand.....
 

65ShelbyClone

Well-Known Member
#13
You have my vote.

Somethings I don't understand why one set of parts that should have a predictable effect. Near identical to the ones on the mule will sudenly throw everthing I learned to the wind. You test and tinker more and try to understand.....
Exactly. The key then is to figure out why things did what did. That's almost as much fun as everything working right the first time. :biggrin:
 
#14
Well this weekend I have to run some fuel through the mule and try and figuere out why my timing needs to be backed off from the test head to the near identical second head. Might be something completely unrelated though. Made two changes at once and broke my own rules lol.

Been bothering me all week and need to figuere this out before the new intake and carb go on...
 
#18
Should have left it as is.....

No harm done by egos, we must learn to respect each other not rewrite the past.
but if you look we did not rewrite the past just cleaned it up . the good info is here and the junk is gone .

on the test mule it is strange how what works on one wont do the same on a another . its the thing that make you scream and think your wrong . but it teaches us a lesson and here we are being shown what someone else is doing so we dont have to make the same thing just to learn what it will do .
 
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#19
Going to ty and few things today on the mule time permitting.

Stock 18cc head and the Honda Flywheel and ignition. then swap back to the Lifan Ignition, then flywheel.
Maybe then I can come to some conclusions. Might be there is a significant difference in when the coils fire or are triggered. No timing light to use to verify unfortunately.

Gut feeling is I have an eratic ignition coil. It fires and work well but the timing is different.

Need to get back on track....
 
#20
If there is one thing that I've learned over the past 20 years in building internal combustion engines is that each one has it's own personality. You can build 5 engines using identical parts and specs. and one of them will out run, out power, and out last the other four! Why? :shrug: Logic and reason will tell us that all 5 should be the same but it never happens that way. The best we can do (and hope for) is start with a proven setup and dial it in to what that engine wants!

Oldschool is absolutely correct! You can't bolt on 1 part and expect to see a noticeable improvement or advantage. The true wisdom in his post is that you need to decide where you want to finish before you even start! Every part has a job to do, but if they are not working towards the same goal then they are working against each other!

The best advise I can give anyone that's just starting out is slow down, listen, and make sure that you know what you want. You will always spend more money and time if you have to the job twice!
 
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